Proper Procedure

[PA Official]

Last night had a situation that we screwed up in, but not sure how we should have corrected it.

I had personal on a rebound, a simple push in the back. The call was made, and as I strolled past the player, he threw a little tantrum that earned him a "T". I briefly chatted with my partners, told him what was happening, then I reported the fouls. At the table I was questioned by the scorekeeper if there were two personals and team fouls. I told her yes, and she informed me it was the player's fifth foul. The coach and the player were right beside me, I indicated to them what was happening and had the clock start the 30 seconds. I turned around, and my partners were shooting the first FT (team was in the bonus). I still had the the disqualified player on the floor.

The kid missed the front end of one on one, and then I got the disqualified player off the floor. We then shot the two technicals.

Often in this situation, there is a bit of discussion with the coach of the offending team at the table, with him asking what his player had done/said and such, and this is what my partners thought was going on.

My question is, should the first FT have counted, or should we have shot it again when the disqualified player was off the floor?

[CLH]

Originally Posted by PA Official

Last night had a situation that we screwed up in, but not sure how we should have corrected it.

I had personal on a rebound, a simple push in the back. The call was made, and as I strolled past the player, he threw a little tantrum that earned him a "T". I briefly chatted with my partners, told him what was happening, then I reported the fouls. At the table I was questioned by the scorekeeper if there were two personals and team fouls. I told her yes, and she informed me it was the player's fifth foul. The coach and the player were right beside me, I indicated to them what was happening and had the clock start the 30 seconds. I turned around, and my partners were shooting the first FT (team was in the bonus). I still had the the disqualified player on the floor.

The kid missed the front end of one on one, and then I got the disqualified player off the floor. We then shot the two technicals.

Often in this situation, there is a bit of discussion with the coach of the offending team at the table, with him asking what his player had done/said and such, and this is what my partners thought was going on.

My question is, should the first FT have counted, or should we have shot it again when the disqualified player was off the floor?

I had the same thing happen few weeks ago. Only difference is that I was the one who start administering the free throws. After making the first, my partner blows his whistle signals the shot is no good, says that it is an unmerited free throw. So we waved it off, took the 30 ticks to sub, then reshot everything. I disagreed, thought we should have counted it, subbed, went from there. But, my partner is alot more experienced than myself so I yielded.

CLH

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by PA Official

Last night had a situation that we screwed up in, but not sure how we should have corrected it.

My question is, should the first FT have counted, or should we have shot it again when the disqualified player was off the floor?

Yes, the first FT should have counted. This is not a correctable error, it is an official's error. Read case play 4.14.1. Situation C.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CLH

I had the same thing happen few weeks ago. Only difference is that I was the one who start administering the free throws. After making the first, my partner blows his whistle signals the shot is no good, says that it is an unmerited free throw. So we waved it off, took the 30 ticks to sub, then reshot everything. I disagreed, thought we should have counted it, subbed, went from there. But, my partner is alot more experienced than myself so I yielded.

CLH

Your more experienced partner was totally WRONG.

2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2’s fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B’s coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the error and huddle to discuss the situation. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B’s head coach shall be notified of B2’s disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable-error situation according to Rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-14-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)


*This became 4.14.1 SITUATION C in the current Case Book as Z referenced above.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by PA Official

At the table I was questioned by the scorekeeper if there were two personals and team fouls. I told her yes, and she informed me it was the player's fifth foul.

This is a minor point, but strictly speaking there were not two personal fouls. There was one personal foul and one technical foul which were both charged to this player. It is true that both fouls count towards that individual player's total of five fouls for disqualification and add to the team total.

Sometimes it is easier to put it into terms that the scorer understands even though it is not proper referee terminology.

[AFHusker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is a minor point, but strictly speaking there were not two personal fouls. There was one personal foul and one technical foul which were both charged to this player. It is true that both fouls count towards that individual player's total of five fouls for disqualification and add to the team total.

Sometimes it is easier to put it into terms that the scorer understands even though it is not proper referee terminology.

While it is easier to put into terms the scorer understands, the scorer should understand there is a difference. You can get up to 5 personal fouls in a game before being DQ'd, but it only takes 2 T's to get DQ'd. In this case the player was DQ'd anyway, but if the personal and T were there player's first 2 fouls and the player gets a second T later, the officials could forget that one was given to the player earlier.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by CLH

After making the first, my partner blows his whistle signals the shot is no good, says that it is an unmerited free throw. So we waved it off, took the 30 ticks to sub, then reshot everything.

I might be way offbase, but is this how NCAAW handle it? I think I remember a conversation with some college refs saying that the Men and Women handle it differently. Any women's officials here who would know?

[CLH]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Your more experienced partner was totally WRONG.

2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2’s fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B’s coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the error and huddle to discuss the situation. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B’s head coach shall be notified of B2’s disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable-error situation according to Rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-14-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)


*This became 4.14.1 SITUATION C in the current Case Book as Z referenced above.

Oh, rest assured I let him know that I was right on this one, and that he made me look incompetent.

[grunewar]

Let me expand on this situation with a hypothetical.

Player A1 fouls. B1 to shoot two. A1 then gets a T for arguing. A Coach gets a T for arguing and then says something else he shouldn't, gets a T and is tossed. Do we shoot all those foul shots (8) with the lane clear and then give B the ball?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Let me expand on this situation with a hypothetical.

Player A1 fouls. B1 to shoot two. A1 then gets a T for arguing. A Coach gets a T for arguing and then says something else he shouldn't, gets a T and is tossed. Do we shoot all those foul shots (8) with the lane clear and then give B the ball?

Yes.

[grunewar]

Thanks JR. Some of these are tough to explain at Rec level!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Thanks JR. Some of these are tough to explain at Rec level!

Just explain to whoever asks that if the ball isn't going to remain in play after the last free throw in any sequence is shot, no matter how many FT's are being shot, then you never let the players line up along the lanes. That's fairly easy to understand.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Thanks JR. Some of these are tough to explain at Rec level!

You explained it. I just agreed with you.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I might be way offbase, but is this how NCAAW handle it? I think I remember a conversation with some college refs saying that the Men and Women handle it differently. Any women's officials here who would know?

NCAAW had an interp that said *not* to count the first FT, get the sub in and then reshoot the first FT. This was several years ago.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NCAAW had an interp that said *not* to count the first FT, get the sub in and then reshoot the first FT. This was several years ago.

Thank you, Bob. On the Men's side, we would still count it, right, just like high school?