Stop Sign

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the very reason I cannot stand it when people are so adamant to advocate the stop sign. For one it did not work here and no matter how much the official is in the right, you look like an aggressor.

Secondly you have absolutely no idea what was said to that official. For all you know he could have said, "You are the worst f#$K### official I have ever seen and I wish you would go to hell!!" Unless you heard exactly what was said, you cannot sit here and tell anyone what should or should not have been done.

This just goes to show the gesture of the "stop sign" did not work if anything it might have incited the coach to react or say something out of line. I can accomplish the same thing by walking up slowly to a coach with my hand over my face and say just about anything and no one knows what I said except the coach and me. I could threaten a coach. I could curse them out. Or I could just say OK and everything I say looks non-threatening and not confrontational. You can warn a coach in this way and get the desired result. I must be doing something right. I have not had to T many coaches this year and in previous years. And I do not use the stop sign.

Peace

I guess everyone knows that I agree with this.
See how this turned out? The all powerful stop sign didn't work at all. What would have been the difference if he would have just talked to the coach? We are humans and they are humans, I'm often concerned about why we can't communicate in a manner where neither one is put on the defensive.
I just emailed my assignor about unsportsmanlike behavior by coaches last night. We need to make sure sportsmanship is appropriate for high school or college basketball across the board. It has already got to the point where kids are doing things deserving of technical fouls, but the legal system will step in. Where is all this going?

BTW, IMO all good officials have some level of arrogance.

[OklahomaRef]

I have officiated and was starting to have some success. I understand the officials point of view, believe me. When I first started, a lot of older guys told me not to "put up with crap" from coaches. I had a lot harder time when I had this attitude. When I would allow a coach to say his piece, and then move on, the game would flow a lot smoother. It seems to me that some officials feel like a coach has absolutely no right to even speak to an official. In the situation I was talking about, the official gave the stop sign immediately. How could he have had enough (which is what the stop sign means, correct?) when the game just started. I'm not saying he was right or wrong. If he wanted to set this tone for the game then he was right. I was just saying there may have been a different way to handle the situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

See how this turned out? The all powerful stop sign didn't work at all. What would have been the difference if he would have just talked to the coach? We are humans and they are humans, I'm often concerned about why we can't communicate in a manner where neither one is put on the defensive.

So since this particular official used the stop sign incorrectly, it's wrong for all officials to use it?

Bull$hit. That's like saying just because something doesn't work for one official, it should never be used by any official.

You make it sound like every official who uses the stop sign is a poor communicator. That's totally and completely false. When I use it, it's because even though I've communicated all night long with a coach, he has now made it apparent that he isn't going to listen to me, know matter how much I've listened to him. It's my way of saying, "OKay caoch, I've listened to you, you're not listening to me, so I'm not listening any further. Enough." Now, if he can't understand that when I say, "Coach, I've heard enough," that's a warning, then he's going to find out that I was serious.

Should the stop sign be used only in certain situations at a certain point? Certainly. Is it wrong to use it appropriately? No, it is not.

BTW, the stop sign seemed to work pretty good when Gary Maxwell gave it to K on Wednesady night.

[OklahomaRef]

Last year at a meeting, one of our senior officials told us to use our hands as little as possible. He said using hand motions was giving too much information. Just his take.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

Last year at a meeting, one of our senior officials told us to use our hands as little as possible. He said using hand motions was giving too much information. Just his take.

So I guess he blows his whistle, runs to the table, tells the scorer who fouled and never uses his hands for anything. I hope he at least points when the ball goes OOB.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

In the situation I was talking about, the official gave the stop sign immediately. How could he have had enough (which is what the stop sign means, correct?) when the game just started. I'm not saying he was right or wrong. .

Do you know why the official gave the coach the immediate stop sign? Do you also know what the coach said that might have meant an immediate "enough" from the official? Nope, but that doesn't stop you from implying that the the official was wrong to give that immediate stop sign. And it didn't stop you from labeling the official as "arrogant" either.

You sureasheck are saying the official was wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So since this particular official used the stop sign incorrectly, it's wrong for all officials to use it?

Bull$hit. That's like saying just because something doesn't work for one official, it should never be used by any official.

I have never had anyone show me how to use this signal "properly" or when to not use the signal. I have seen it used but as illustrated here, it works sometimes and does not work sometimes. I would rather use a signal that seems to have a better precentage of success.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You make it sound like every official who uses the stop sign is a poor communicator. That's totally and completely false. When I use it, it's because even though I've communicated all night long with a coach, he has now made it apparent that he isn't going to listen to me, know matter how much I've listened to him. It's my way of saying, "OKay caoch, I've listened to you, you're not listening to me, so I'm not listening any further. Enough." Now, if he can't understand that when I say, "Coach, I've heard enough," that's a warning, then he's going to find out that I was serious.

Should the stop sign be used only in certain situations at a certain point? Certainly. Is it wrong to use it appropriately? No, it is not.

BTW, the stop sign seemed to work pretty good when Gary Maxwell gave it to K on Wednesady night.

If it works for you and others it is your prerogative to do so. That does not mean that some of us cannot think it is a poor move. The T might have been completely justified, but as shown someone watching makes a judgment that the official was being the aggressor rather than reacting to bad behavior. Remember, perception is often reality. Life is not fair and people will draw conclusions we might not like.

I was sitting and talking with a guy in my association last night (with JeffPea as well) that works in the Big Ten and a couple of other D1 conferences in our region. We were talking about handling coaches and situations, not once did this official say anything about using the stop sign or making it the big deal we tend to make it hear. Every story or situation he talked about his words that worked than a gesture that seems to have very mixed response from the people that we are trying to influence. I do not think coaches got the memo that this means something specific.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So since this particular official used the stop sign incorrectly, it's wrong for all officials to use it?

Bull$hit. That's like saying just because something doesn't work for one official, it should never be used by any official.

You make it sound like every official who uses the stop sign is a poor communicator. That's totally and completely false. When I use it, it's because even though I've communicated all night long with a coach, he has now made it apparent that he isn't going to listen to me, know matter how much I've listened to him. It's my way of saying, "OKay caoch, I've listened to you, you're not listening to me, so I'm not listening any further. Enough." Now, if he can't understand that when I say, "Coach, I've heard enough," that's a warning, then he's going to find out that I was serious.

I don't think I ever said that it is wrong for all officials to use it because of this one situation. You pulled that out of your a$$.
Please don't tell me what I make something sound like; I hope to be able to communicate exactly what I want to get across.

When in your adult life has someone gave you a stop sign or told you to talk to the hand and you received it well AND stopped talking immediately?

One of the main reasons I don't like the stop sign is because people on here make it seem like it is a required step in the process to give a coach a T. Also, as pointed out earlier, the percentages aren't in your favor when using this tactic with another adult.

You know what my way of saying coach I've heard enough? I say, "Coach, I've heard enough." If you have been communicating with a coach all night long and they don't stop whatever it is they're doing, it is your problem if you have to give them a stop sign. If I have that situation it will more than likely end up in a technical foul.

You can do things how you like to do them and I will do things how I like to do them. Your way seems to be working for you and my way is working for me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You can do things how you like to do them and I will do things how I like to do them. Your way seems to be working for you and my way is working for me.

This is why some officials are successful and others are not. You have to do what works for you, not what works for other people.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I don't think I ever said that it is wrong for all officials to use it because of this one situation. You pulled that out of your a$$.
Please don't tell me what I make something sound like; I hope to be able to communicate exactly what I want to get across.

Well, I'm afraid you aren't communicating very effectively. Perhaps you're pulling things out of your own ***. You certainly talk out of it quite often.

I've qualified my statements. I've stated the stop sign can be bad if not used correctly. I've also stated that it can be good when used properly. All you've ever written is that it's bad. Well guess what...you're wrong. It's not always a bad tool to use. I think the fact that we see a veteran ACC official use it in the biggest rivalry in college sports is a testament to that. But I guess you know more than he does.

When in your adult life has someone gave you a stop sign or told you to talk to the hand and you received it well AND stopped talking immediately?

I don't know that anyone has ever told me to talk to the hand or given me a stop sign. It's not something you run into in every day life.

One of the main reasons I don't like the stop sign is because people on here make it seem like it is a required step in the process to give a coach a T. Also, as pointed out earlier, the percentages aren't in your favor when using this tactic with another adult.

It's a warning. I prefer to give a warning before giving a T. If you don't, then bang away!

You can do things how you like to do them and I will do things how I like to do them. Your way seems to be working for you and my way is working for me.

Great. But don't ridicule everyone who doesn't do it your way! I'm not advocating that officials use it or not use it. OTOH that's exactly what you're doing.

[dan74]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

I have officiated and was starting to have some success. I understand the officials point of view, believe me. When I first started, a lot of older guys told me not to "put up with crap" from coaches. I had a lot harder time when I had this attitude. When I would allow a coach to say his piece, and then move on, the game would flow a lot smoother. It seems to me that some officials feel like a coach has absolutely no right to even speak to an official. In the situation I was talking about, the official gave the stop sign immediately. How could he have had enough (which is what the stop sign means, correct?) when the game just started. I'm not saying he was right or wrong. If he wanted to set this tone for the game then he was right. I was just saying there may have been a different way to handle the situation.

Hmm..."have officiated" and "was?" Not trying to wade too far into the are you an official or not debate, but, hmmm...also, "I understand the officials point of view," hmm. Interesting use of past tense and "understand" almost seems as though you're an abserver rather than participater...Hmm. Anyway, not that it matters.

As of today, I'm about 75 games into my first season officiating. When I first started, I "had a lot harder time" when I gave some coaches too much latitude to say their piece. The thing is, the pieces kept coming and coming. I have now adopted the philosophy that I won't put "up with crap" from coaches. As long as they say their piece here and there, fine, but it's when the pieces add up to a whole pie (apple, that is), that's when I will no longer put up "with the crap."

When you state, OR, how could he have had enough, I might be wrong, but wasn't it at the end of the 1st? Had the coach said "his piece," and said his "piece" again and again in the 1st quarter? If so, then maybe the pieces added up to a whole pie (cherry, this time) and the official no longer could "put up with his crap."

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Well, I'm afraid you aren't communicating very effectively. Perhaps you're pulling things out of your own ***. You certainly talk out of it quite often.

I've qualified my statements. I've stated the stop sign can be bad if not used correctly. I've also stated that it can be good when used properly. All you've ever written is that it's bad. Well guess what...you're wrong. It's not always a bad tool to use. I think the fact that we see a veteran ACC official use it in the biggest rivalry in college sports is a testament to that. But I guess you know more than he does.



I don't know that anyone has ever told me to talk to the hand or given me a stop sign. It's not something you run into in every day life.



It's a warning. I prefer to give a warning before giving a T. If you don't, then bang away!



Great. But don't ridicule everyone who doesn't do it your way! I'm not advocating that officials use it or not use it. OTOH that's exactly what you're doing.

I'm advocating officials not use anything in a robotic manner where they have to do steps 1, 2, 3 and 4. Life isn't like that. What I hope to have accomplish is provoke some thought about the fact that people communicate successfully with people everyday without giving them a stop sign. When a coach is coaching and I'm officiating, we are still people.

You speak of me not giving a warning. There you have it right there! You are basically saying you use it every time before you give a T and I think that is robotic. If you don't use it everytime, like you mentioned earlier, then you are giving a T without warning too. Is that right or wrong? If I tell a coach I've heard enough without throwing up my hand, is that not giving a warning.

If you have a dissagreement with your wife do you follow the same steps everytime? Probably not.

Basically, I chose to advocate not using a stop sign everytime by saying you shouldn't use one at all while you are (you remained mum a lot of the time when I mention it) saying it works in some situations, but not all. I say it is robotic, you just say (today) that it works some times and not all times. It seems like your stance is either quiet or generic.

You have mentioned the ACC several times and I can understand since you are in the middle of ACC country, but let me ask you a question. I've met Gary Maxwell and he seems like an OK guy/official to me (in other words the statement to follow isn't about him), but do you think that every official in a D1 conference got there because of their ability to officiate a basketball game? Surely you aren't that gullable.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Basically, I chose to advocate not using a stop sign everytime by saying you shouldn't use one at all while you are saying it works in some situations, but not all.

Just so that I'm on the record here too, Tom, I also think that a stop sign works fine in some situations, but certainly not in all situations. It's simply a non-verbal warning and you use it the same way as you use a verbal warning. It's one and done. it's just another tool in our toolbox. I can't see why it can't be used on appropriate occasions, and most experienced officials readily know what those appropriate occasions are too imo.

I know that it's a personal peeve of yours, but do you really feel that a stop sign should never be used? Or am I reading you wrong?

For the record, I certainly don't think that using a stop-sign is a game interrupter either.

[BktBallRef]

tomegun, that maybe the stupidest post you've ever posted on this forum.

I said I prefer to warn before I give a T. I never said I always do anything. No one here is advocating any type of robotic bull$hit. I have no idea WTF you came up with that idiotic crap.

Just because I don't reply every time you post on this topic, that means I'm remaining "mum?" LOL! I didn't know I was required to reply every time you post. Please resend the memo because I didn't get it.

Finally, Gary worked the biggest rivalry game in college basketball on Wednesday night. He was the alternate at the Final Four last year. he's respected across the country. But he was in these positions because of who he knows?

Right. It's apparent that you're already drunk, early on a Friday night.

I done with you. I just hope others keep responding to you so you want continue to mislead others. As for me, you're a waste of my time.

[Ref Daddy]

Rather the "Stop" or this?