charge or not

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight but I can't help but wonder what this means.

It means he's another rec league warrior. We've gone through this before with him. He thinks that if you do college-age players in a summer league, you're a college official. Kinda like a young Old School. He's now a first year high-school official, and he still hasn't posted whether his first year also includes his first real, live high school varsity game either.

As you saw above, he keeps insisting that NBA rules should be used in NFHS/NCAA situations, as exemplified by their block/charge rule under the basket. Saying not to call charges on secondary defenders under the basket is just typical of his posts. Of course, he also insists among other things that whacking the board but not touching the ball or basket while doing so is BI. Maybe I shouldn't get ticked off so much, but his nonsense doesn't help the education of new officials reading this forum.

[chartrusepengui]

Hey - I am an educator of the arts (music) and my administrators are always taking $$$$ from me to give to weight rooms and athletics. When did BB become an art? I wanna know so I can hit up my administration for more $$$$$. :-)

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Maybe I shouldn't get ticked off so much, but his nonsense doesn't help the education of new officials reading this forum.

I agree JR. Please stick to answers that are backed by legitimate rules and not hear say on the courts. This is tough enough without adding confusion.
Thanks

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It means he's another rec league warrior. We've gone through this before with him. He thinks that if you do college-age players in a summer league, you're a college official. Kinda like a young Old School. He's now a first year high-school official, and he still hasn't posted whether his first year also includes his first real, live high school varsity game either.

As you saw above, he keeps insisting that NBA rules should be used in NFHS/NCAA situations, as exemplified by their block/charge rule under the basket. Saying not to call charges on secondary defenders under the basket is just typical of his posts. Of course, he also insists among other things that whacking the board but not touching the ball or basket while doing so is BI. Maybe I shouldn't get ticked off so much, but his nonsense doesn't help the education of new officials reading this forum.

I'll take the high road and just say that you can believe what you want to believe. If you want to believe that I am a "rec league warrior" that is fine. I appreciate you trying to discredit me. There are less than a handful of people on this forum who have seen me work, and you are not one of them, so I ask kindly please don't attempt to discredit me if you haven't seen me work or if you don't know about my rules knowledge. Do I follow the rules to a perfect T. No, I don't and posts on the forum show that. Does that make me a horrible referee. In your eyes and others, maybe, but not in the eyes of the people I work for and work with.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Do I follow the rules to a perfect T. No, I don't and posts on the forum show that. Does that make me a horrible referee. In your eyes and others, maybe, but not in the eyes of the people I work for and work with.

Well, that tells me a lot about your association's standards. If they think it's OK for their officials to apply NBA rules and philosophies to high school games instead of teaching you the proper and appropriate rules, mechanics, etc. to use, then you're probably in the right place. Hey, use or make up whatever rules and mechanics that you want to. I could care less, and apparently your association could care less too. When you recommend that other officials should follow your lead though, well, I'm guess that I'm just gonna have to differ with you.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Do I follow the rules to a perfect T. No, I don't and posts on the forum show that. Does that make me a horrible referee. In your eyes and others, maybe, but not in the eyes of the people I work for and work with.

Thus the reason the rules committee felt the need to make this a POE this year, as stated in another Thread by I think Nevada...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Splute

Thus the reason the rules committee felt the need to make this a POE this year, as stated in another Thread by I think Nevada...

Once again, there is a real world and there is the rulebook. Not all things are defined clearly by the rulebook. If you actually read the rulebook, the rulebook actually talks about the "Spirit of the Rule." If you ask me the NF double talks on many levels. If there is a rule they think is not being applied by the letter, then they need to make it a POE. Just saying "do not do this or else" without any description is rather silly if you ask me. Once again, the NF does not hire officials, hire assignors or give post season games. If they want to start doing that, then and only then can they get on talk about what officials should or should not realistically do. The very people that want to talk about how to apply this rule by the letter are some of the very people that if we were to switch this conversation to another rule, they would use a personal or widely used application of that rule.

Peace

[Splute]

Isn't that the reason they created the Case Book? To actually provide situations that indicate the "intent" of the rule? Thus allowing officials to apply those cases to others that, although may not be exact to the letter, but are similar in intent of the rule... IMO officials should not waiver from the fundamentals of the rules. I do not believe you will see every violation; but to not apply a rule because you dont agree with it or dont feel it was really that bad this time seems unthinkable to me. Perhaps my thoughts will change as I learn and see more. I do realize many of the violations are judgement calls.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, there is a real world and there is the rulebook. Not all things are defined clearly by the rulebook. If you actually read the rulebook, the rulebook actually talks about the "Spirit of the Rule." If you ask me the NF double talks on many levels. If there is a rule they think is not being applied by the letter, then they need to make it a POE. Just saying "do not do this or else" without any description is rather silly if you ask me. Once again, the NF does not hire officials, hire assignors or give post season games. If they want to start doing that, then and only then can they get on talk about what officials should or should not realistically do. The very people that want to talk about how to apply this rule by the letter are some of the very people that if we were to switch this conversation to another rule, they would use a personal or widely used application of that rule.

Do you think that it's OK in the "real world" to apply the NBA/NCAA Womens block/charge rule with the circle and secondary defender etc. to games played under NFHS rules? Do you think that it's OK in a high school game to call a block on a defender with LGP because that defender is standing under the basket? If you like the NBA rules better, then feel free to use 'em in your high school games too, just like Btaylor.

If you go back and read a few posts, you'll find that it's got nothing at all to do with an official applying any rule by the letter. It's about an official ignoring the rules completely and trying to apply his very own rules and philosophies to situations where they aren't relevant or appropriate at all.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Do you think that it's OK in the "real world" to apply the NBA/NCAA Womens block/charge rule with the circle and secondary defender etc. to games played under NFHS rules? Do you think that it's OK in a high school game to call a block on a defender with LGP because that defender is standing under the basket? If you like the NBA rules better, then feel free to use 'em in your high school games too, just like Btaylor.

You keep talking about what is OK as if that means something. What is OK is not the issue from my point of view. It does not even enter the equation. I am not just a HS official and I have had to do things I do not feel it "OK" in order to keep my job.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you go back and read a few posts, you'll find that it's got nothing at all to do with an official applying any rule by the letter. It's about an official ignoring the rules completely and trying to apply his very own rules and philosophies to situations where they aren't relevant or appropriate at all.

That is your interpretation of the situation and that is your right to feel that way. But once again we all make decisions in the real world based on something we were instructed to do. You are not the only assignor in the country and most of us do not work for you. You have a philosophy which I completely understand, but it is not what everyone has to work under. You might like that reality, but after all this is a reality. Once again, what is the punishment from the NF if a particular official does not follow a rule to the letter? Absolutely nothing, just like what is going to happen by having this conversation. I like the passion, but that does not mean you are right.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is your interpretation of the situation and that is your right to feel that way. But once again we all make decisions in the real world based on something we were instructed to do. You are not the only assignor in the country and most of us do not work for you. You have a philosophy which I completely understand, but it is not what everyone has to work under. You might like that reality, but after all this is a reality. Once again, what is the punishment from the NF if a particular official does not follow a rule to the letter? Absolutely nothing, just like what is going to happen by having this conversation. I like the passion, but that does not mean you are right.

I understand your point. I've already said that if if Btaylor's association thinks that he's doing the right thing and they don't have a problem with it, which they obviously don't, then they can both knock themselves out. I could care less. They're not advocating bending the rules; they're advocating ignoring them completely and using their own rules. Imo, that's terrible advice for officials outside their association. That's my point.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, there is a real world and there is the rulebook. Not all things are defined clearly by the rulebook. If you actually read the rulebook, the rulebook actually talks about the "Spirit of the Rule."
Peace

True indeed. However, there are some that will, when the rule is completely unabmiguous in both the letter and the spirit, still chose to not adhere to it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

True indeed. However, there are some that will, when the rule is completely unabmiguous in both the letter and the spirit, still chose to not adhere to it.

I would agree with this as well.

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, there is a real world and there is the rulebook. Not all things are defined clearly by the rulebook. If you actually read the rulebook, the rulebook actually talks about the "Spirit of the Rule." If you ask me the NF double talks on many levels. If there is a rule they think is not being applied by the letter, then they need to make it a POE. Just saying "do not do this or else" without any description is rather silly if you ask me. Once again, the NF does not hire officials, hire assignors or give post season games. If they want to start doing that, then and only then can they get on talk about what officials should or should not realistically do. The very people that want to talk about how to apply this rule by the letter are some of the very people that if we were to switch this conversation to another rule, they would use a personal or widely used application of that rule.

Peace

This is what I was pretty much trying to say. I am not advocating using strictly NBA rules for college and HS games, but I do say this knowing that I have been told this by D1 officials themselves is that a defender under the basket is doing nothing more than trying to draw a cheap offensive foul. What I mean by under the basket, and what I picture it in my mind is almost directly under the backboard (maybe a little further out), not at the part of the rim that is farthest from the backboard. That doesn't seem like a big difference, but to me. To me it is the difference in a block and an offensive foul.

Also like JRut said, I am just doing what I have been taught and was also told if I do it this way then I will get to where I want to be, and to me that sounds like the thing to do.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

This is what I was pretty much trying to say. I am not advocating using strictly NBA rules for college and HS games, but I do say this knowing that I have been told this by D1 officials themselves is that a defender under the basket is doing nothing more than trying to draw a cheap offensive foul. What I mean by under the basket, and what I picture it in my mind is almost directly under the backboard (maybe a little further out), not at the part of the rim that is farthest from the backboard. That doesn't seem like a big difference, but to me. To me it is the difference in a block and an offensive foul.

Also like JRut said, I am just doing what I have been taught and was also told if I do it this way then I will get to where I want to be, and to me that sounds like the thing to do.

And as JR said, if you're calling a block on a defender with LGP in games played under NFHS rules, and your association is teaching that, then I guess that it isn't really your fault that you belong to one piss-poor association. Teaching a new official to deliberately ignore a plainly written rule is just plain ridiculous. Sad.