Make the dam call!!!

[chartrusepengui]

I disagree strongly with even asking the coach to initialize anything. What are you gonna do if he doesn't want to do it?

Nothing, except if there is an error, I won't have to listen to his excuses that someone else is at fault.

And, if he doesn't want to do it and a mistake is made by the "home" team's bookkeeper, are you still gonna call a T?

You bet - if he is too stuffy, arrogant, busy or whatever too take a few seconds to check! If ya don't have the ba!!s - you shouldn't be on the court.

It is NOT the coach's responsibility to ensure table personnel has entered the data properly. He should have already checked it for accuracy when he SUBMITTED it to the table personnel. If you determine that he submitted it properly and correctly, why the T?

That is exactly what you would be trying to ascertain by having him look it over and initial - or just having him confirm everything is ok. No finger pointing at scorekeeper to try and cover an intentional or inadvertant error, or for them to cover their azz.

Bottom line, the coach's initialization does not relinquish his team's opportunity for you to use common sense in determining if the coach was at fault, or the table personnel was at fault.

[/QUOTE]

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[deecee]

no i diasagree and you are wrong -- the coaches job is NOT to baby sit the book to MAKE SURE that what HE gave them WAS entered AS he GAVE them.

you are taking the onus off the scorekeeper for screwing up and putting it on the coach. "coach do you want to double check the book" "I gave them all the info can the book not copy it in correctly."

having him check over it is not COMMON SENSE on HIS part -- yes for us it could alleviate issues for US and HELP US in our job. However IT IS NOT his duty to make sure that if he submitted #15 as the starter and the book entered it as #25 that HE should be held accountable because YOU think HE should do YOUR job.

everyone has a role -- who are you to get mad if you have much higher expectations from said role -- do you coach players while you officiate -- I know I do not -- I answer questions if a player asks but I dont coach, and a coach doesnt keep the scorebook. their role with the book ends once they submit starters -- from there usually each team has at least at the varsity level has a scorebook person who does it for all the games (home and away) thats their role. I am yet to give a pregame administrative T and I hope that never happens. If an administrative issue comes up during the game I try my darndest to make sure that the punishment I hand out IS aimed at the party responsible. If I can avoid an administrative T I will do whatever I can -- but if it turns out that the team was responsible and they were at fault then they earned the T. however a team has to be really negligent in reality to get a pregame administrative T.

[chartrusepengui]

hey deecee --- I totally disagree with you on this one, but, as they say, "opinions are like a$$oles - we all gottem and they all stink!" I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

You bet - if he is too stuffy, arrogant, busy or whatever too take a few seconds to check! If ya don't have the ba!!s - you shouldn't be on the court.


That is exactly what you would be trying to ascertain by having him look it over and initial - or just having him confirm everything is ok. No finger pointing at scorekeeper to try and cover an intentional or inadvertant error, or for them to cover their azz.

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Having him check might be a nice preventative measure but it in no way puts the onus on him to ensure that it is correct. The rules very clearly say that the team only has to provide the info by 10 minutes. Anything else is a clerical error.

I will NEVER give a T for an error in the book when the team provided it properly. It doesn't matter if you had the coach recite every entry in the book 10 times before initializing the book. To call a T in this situation is simply making up your own rules...and in a way that doesn't make anything better (and may make it worse).

It is complete NONSENSE to do anything else.

[RookieDude]

Had a T in a NFHS Varsity Boys game the other night, because of a "Admin. error".
Very experienced official told me it was a "clerical error" and no T...if he had been doing the game....Reason: "the table crew is part of "our" crew...so it is our mistake, not the coach's."

You make the call:

Mid way through the 1st Qt. player #45 was subed in before the second horn during a full time-out. Second horn sounds and players get ready for the throw-in. The table waves me over before we get the throw-in under way. The home book had player #45 (I'll call him Homer) listed as #41...as did the visiting teams book. So ol Homer was listed in both books as #41...not the #45 that he was wearing.

I got with my crew, informed both coaches of the T, and away we went.

Thoughts or comments? Such as where was ball taken out...T foul go toward the bonus...seat belt...etc?

[deecee]

good T -- no seat belt as that is not indirect or direct to coach and ball to other team at half court after free throws.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by deecee

good T -- no seat belt as that is not indirect or direct to coach and ball to other team at half court after free throws.

...also, T foul counts toward the bonus. You passed the test deecee!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Having him check might be a nice preventative measure but it in no way puts the onus on him to ensure that it is correct. The rules very clearly say that the team only has to provide the info by 10 minutes. Anything else is a clerical error.

I will NEVER give a T for an error in the book when the team provided it properly. It doesn't matter if you had the coach recite every entry in the book 10 times before initializing the book. To call a T in this situation is simply making up your own rules...and in a way that doesn't make anything better (and may make it worse).

It is complete NONSENSE to do anything else.

That should be the end of the argument because you can't say it any plainer or be any more correct as to how an official should properly handle these situations according to the rules.

However.......

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Nothing, except if there is an error, I won't have to listen to his excuses that someone else is at fault.



You bet - if he is too stuffy, arrogant, busy or whatever too take a few seconds to check! If ya don't have the ba!!s - you shouldn't be on the court.


That is exactly what you would be trying to ascertain by having him look it over and initial - or just having him confirm everything is ok. No finger pointing at scorekeeper to try and cover an intentional or inadvertant error, or for them to cover their azz.

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Common sense and balls sometimes get in the way of each other. See my previous post and see C. Rust's post. I don't like the procedure - use it if you want, but don't throw out common sense when trying to determine the reason for an error in the book.

[BillyMac]

Ranjo:

Where does it say that the "home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time". I can't find that language in Rule 10.

If both teams supply the correct names, numbers, and starters previous to the ten minute mark, then they have complied with the Rule 10. If it takes the home and visiting scorekeepers nine minutes to copy that information into both books, then I don't see any reason for a technical foul.

Am I reading the rule incorrectly?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ranjo:

Where does it say that the "home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time". I can't find that language in Rule 10.

If both teams supply the correct names, numbers, and starters previous to the ten minute mark, then they have complied with the Rule 10. If it takes the home and visiting scorekeepers nine minutes to copy that information into both books, then I don't see any reason for a technical foul.

Am I reading the rule incorrectly?

NO.

[BillyMac]

Jurassic Referee:

Please give a rule citation for "the home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time". The only reference that I can find regarding this situation is in Rule 10, that both teams supply the correct names, numbers, and starters previous to the ten minute mark. If both coaches handed to both the home and visiting scorekeepers, and possibly a neutral scorekeeper, as in a state tournament game, a piece of paper with the correct names and numbers of their squad and their starters at the 11 minute mark, I would have a tough time invoking Rule 10, and giving a technical foul, if the table personnel aren't finished copying this information into the scorebooks at the 6 minute mark. In this specific situation, to whom would you give the technical foul? What if the visiting scorekeeper copied from the pieces of paper first and finished at the 10 minute mark and then gave the papers to the home scorkeeper, who didn't finsh copying the information into his or her book until the 8 minute mark?

Please respond with one of your well respected rule book or case book citations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Jurassic Referee:

Please give a rule citation for "the home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time". The only reference that I can find regarding this situation is in Rule 10, that both teams supply the correct names, numbers, and starters previous to the ten minute mark. If both coaches handed to both the home and visiting scorekeepers, and possibly a neutral scorekeeper, as in a state tournament game, a piece of paper with the correct names and numbers of their squad and their starters at the 11 minute mark, I would have a tough time invoking Rule 10, and giving a technical foul, if the table personnel aren't finished copying this information into the scorebooks at the 6 minute mark. In this specific situation, to whom would you give the technical foul? What if the visiting scorekeeper copied from the pieces of paper first and finished at the 10 minute mark and then gave the papers to the home scorkeeper, who didn't finsh copying the information into his or her book until the 8 minute mark?

Please respond with one of your well respected rule book or case book citations.

Billy, my well-respected response is that I completely screwed up and read the last sentence of your first post incorrectly. My apologies. You were correct, and I meant to agree with you from the git-go. I went back and changed my response to reflect that.

[ranjo]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ranjo:

Where does it say that the "home book should be ready at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time". I can't find that language in Rule 10.

If both teams supply the correct names, numbers, and starters previous to the ten minute mark, then they have complied with the Rule 10. If it takes the home and visiting scorekeepers nine minutes to copy that information into both books, then I don't see any reason for a technical foul.

Am I reading the rule incorrectly?

BillyMac -

I got out the rule book and after reading the language in Rule 10, (CLICK) a light came on. I consider myself a pretty good rules person, but I have mis-read this rule for years. Thanks for your "enlightenment"

[Ignats75]

In the same Fresh/JV double ehader I posted about in another thread we had a pregame issue. The Freshman Game was between two "innercity" teams that are VERY bitter rivals. The Freshman game immediately followed a Frosh/JV/Varsity triple header between the same two school only on the girls side. The police always clear the gym and disperse the crowd before allowing the spectators in for the boys triple header. The girls game had OT so they were running very late. There was a lot of confusion between games, and in the rush to catch up game management started the warmup clock at 11:00!!!

Neither book was ready at 10:00 when I went to the table. No starters. In fact, the official scorer was outside helping with crowd control. I checked the game ball, made sure the AP Arrow worked, told the visiting scorer (who was still filling out her book ) that I would sign the book before the tip and went back to watching the warmups. I could've been really evil and assessed a double T and made both coaches have a seatbelt, but that would've been heavy-handed. Just the beginning of an adventurous evening.