Make the dam call!!!

[CLH]

Originally Posted by Ref Daddy

Yes they won by one point .... but what about the other 35 that were scored?

Its not ALL about the T.

Ok, I'm not trying to be a jerk or argue, but comments like that drive me nuts. To me, they are cop outs for the ones among us that don't want to admit we missed a call or had a bad game. I'll be the first one to say that officials don't decide games, but we definetly can have a huge affect on them, which is why our common motto is "Get the call right."

CLH

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CLH

Ok, I'm not trying to be a jerk or argue, but comments like that drive me nuts. To me, they are cop outs for the ones among us that don't want to admit we missed a call or had a bad game. I'll be the first one to say that officials don't decide games, but we definetly can have a huge affect on them, which is why our common motto is "Get the call right."

CLH

It also depends on why the mistake was made. Was the name wrong because the information was given was not correct or was this a mistake by the bookkeeper that put the wrong information in? If that is the case I agree with you. But why did you cave in? If you felt that strongly about it, you should have administered the T. Getting mad here is not going to change that fact.

Peace

[SMEngmann]

Rut, I think you're misinterpreting what CLH is saying. CLH is saying that he called the T when the predominant majority of officials would've just let it slide, so I think the two of you are in agreement. CLH took some issue with RefDaddy's comment because he feels that his comment was a cop out, or a rationalization of mistakes by officials, where CLH feels that we shouldn't rationalize, just strive to get calls right and admit mistakes when we make them. Just clearing that up

As for the book, I will have a coach or assistant coach initial that everything is correct when I check the book so that if this situation arises I don't have to be a detective or rationalize why mistakes are made. I had a situation in a playoff game last year where a player from the visiting team had to be added to the book late and we started the game with FTs, and the coach couldn't argue because it was his mistake for not verifying the info.

[Nevadaref]

My attitude is that we should not be afraid to make the correct call whether that be a technical foul, intentional foul, or a travel. Officiating is about courage.

Do it right and don't worry about it. Good job, CLH.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My attitude is that we should not be afraid to make the correct call whether that be a technical foul, intentional foul, or a travel. Officiating is about courage.

Do it right and don't worry about it. Good job, CLH.

I concur on that statement totally!!!!!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Rut, I think you're misinterpreting what CLH is saying. CLH is saying that he called the T when the predominant majority of officials would've just let it slide, so I think the two of you are in agreement. CLH took some issue with RefDaddy's comment because he feels that his comment was a cop out, or a rationalization of mistakes by officials, where CLH feels that we shouldn't rationalize, just strive to get calls right and admit mistakes when we make them. Just clearing that up

I see that he called the T, but so what. He made the right call. Why does it matter that his partner wanted to not call the T?

Also I think it is a generalization to say that officials are afraid to make this call. I have never had that discussion with a partner that I can ever think of about that kind of situation. I hope he has more evidence than just one experience. I have known many officials that have handed out this T, I know I have twice already this year and the only debate I had was with the coach (he blamed me for the mistake thinking I was supposed to catch his mistake).

Peace

[ronny mulkey]

As for the book, I will have a coach or assistant coach initial that everything is correct when I check the book so that if this situation arises I don't have to be a detective or rationalize why mistakes are made. I had a situation in a playoff game last year where a player from the visiting team had to be added to the book late and we started the game with FTs, and the coach couldn't argue because it was his mistake for not verifying the info.[/QUOTE]

SM,

If the mistake is because of transcription or clerical error, then having this coach initialize the book does not make it his/her mistake. As Rut said, look at the reason for the mistake. Coaches are busy immediately before a game and they have complied by submitting a correct roster or starting lineup. Now, you want them to verify someone else's work right before the game.

[chartrusepengui]

If the mistake is because of transcription or clerical error, then having this coach initialize the book does not make it his/her mistake. As Rut said, look at the reason for the mistake. Coaches are busy immediately before a game and they have complied by submitting a correct roster or starting lineup. Now, you want them to verify someone else's work right before the game.[/QUOTE]


yes - it is the coaches mistake. He/she ultimately responsible for making sure correct info is in the book. If they don't want to take the time from their "busy pregame schedule" to check and verify that the info is correct - it is their fault when a T occurs. If they check and find a mistake then they can chastise whoever was responsible - and there will be no need for a T. I was a varsity coach for many years as well as an official for 23 years so I understand both sides of this issue. It does not take that long to look in a book and see if everything is correct. I have not had a coach initial as in previous posts - but starting tonight I will. GREAT idea!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

yes - it is the coaches mistake. He/she ultimately responsible for making sure correct info is in the book.

Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

[chartrusepengui]

Fine - but if I'm the coach - it's my T - administrative or not and it hurts the team i am coaching therefore - if I take my job seriously - its my responsibility.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

What he said. The first thing I do in these cases is to find out if it's possibly a clerical error.

[Eastshire]

At that level, I call over the visiting coach and explain what happened. Nine times out of ten the coach will say, "Just change it." and we will. If he doesn't, we administer the T.

The Jr High level is more about the kids learning to play. Why penalize the kids for something that isn't there fault?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not true. The rule states something like "... provide the scorer with the names and numbers of the roster and 5 starters...."

It states nothing about "ensure the correct information is in the book."

Here's the exact wording:

SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

Just padding my post count this morning

[ronny mulkey]

yes - it is the coaches mistake. He/she ultimately responsible for making sure correct info is in the book. If they don't want to take the time from their "busy pregame schedule" to check and verify that the info is correct - it is their fault when a T occurs. If they check and find a mistake then they can chastise whoever was responsible - and there will be no need for a T. I was a varsity coach for many years as well as an official for 23 years so I understand both sides of this issue. It does not take that long to look in a book and see if everything is correct. I have not had a coach initial as in previous posts - but starting tonight I will. GREAT idea!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

I disagree strongly with even asking the coach to initialize anything. What are you gonna do if he doesn't want to do it? And, if he doesn't want to do it and a mistake is made by the "home" team's bookkeeper, are you still gonna call a T?

It is NOT the coach's responsibility to ensure table personnel has entered the data properly. He should have already checked it for accuracy when he SUBMITTED it to the table personnel. If you determine that he submitted it properly and correctly, why the T?

Bottom line, the coach's initialization does not relinquish his team's opportunity for you to use common sense in determining if the coach was at fault, or the table personnel was at fault.

[chartrusepengui]

I disagree strongly with even asking the coach to initialize anything. What are you gonna do if he doesn't want to do it?

Nothing, except if there is an error, I won't have to listen to his excuses that someone else is at fault.

And, if he doesn't want to do it and a mistake is made by the "home" team's bookkeeper, are you still gonna call a T?

You bet - if he is too stuffy, arrogant, busy or whatever too take a few seconds to check! If ya don't have the ba!!s - you shouldn't be on the court.

It is NOT the coach's responsibility to ensure table personnel has entered the data properly. He should have already checked it for accuracy when he SUBMITTED it to the table personnel. If you determine that he submitted it properly and correctly, why the T?

That is exactly what you would be trying to ascertain by having him look it over and initial - or just having him confirm everything is ok. No finger pointing at scorekeeper to try and cover an intentional or inadvertant error, or for them to cover their azz.

Bottom line, the coach's initialization does not relinquish his team's opportunity for you to use common sense in determining if the coach was at fault, or the table personnel was at fault.

[/QUOTE]

Bottom line - having him check it over is COMMON SENSE so that you can alleviate any potential problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!