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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 12:46pm
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I am inquiring about high schools in your areas and their feelings on 3 man mechanics. In my area, there are some conferences and or individual schools very much in favor of 3-man officiating crews and are in fact implementing 3-man, while other conferences or schools/coaches/AD's strongly oppose it. Please respond to the pro's and cons of 3-man officiating as expressed by your area coaches, AD's, etc. How are your area schools/conferences successfully implementing 3-man based on some of the roadblocks (ie. funding, officials shortages, etc.)

Thanks in advanced for your input.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 03:56pm
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Our association is located just south of St. Louis. We do not assign any games to speak of. The AD's do all of the assigning. We also do not have enough officials to work varsity games.( We barely have enough to work 2 man crews much less 3 man.) Cost is also a factor since many of the schools we work for are rural. However, some AD's will hire a 3 man crew for a big game, tournament final or if the game is on an off night like Saturday.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 04:04pm
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As a former official and now coach I venture my personal feelings Re. 3 officials.
It is hard enough to get 2 officials that are consistent. It is nearly impossible to get 3.
I think if you have 3 officials that everyone should get 6 fouls instead of 5.
One of the reasons for going to 3 officials was the pretense that it would "clean up the overly physical nature of the game, particularly the inside game". I submit that the game is more physical now than any any time prior. (It hasn't accomplished this)
I can never remember thinking at the end of a game that it was a good thing they had 3 officials instead of only 2.
I will take 2 good officials over 3 mediocre ones anytime.
I have seen very few games with 3 officials where it wasn't obvious that 1 of the three was either intimidated or noticeably inferior to the others.
I am not "anti-official". The only "T" I have ever had was for a scorebook violation.
I have a great deal of respect for officials because I know personally how difficult the job is. I just do not feel that having 3 officials has added anything positive to the game. If having more officials was truly better I think we would be up to 4 or 5 by now.
I also want to say that since my "discovery" of this page a couple of months ago that I have learned more about the rules and the views and philosophies about officiating than I have in all of the years I have been involved with basketball. The participants here are the most knowledgeable, candid and conscientious officials I have yet to encounter. You guys (gals) can call my games anytime.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 04:05pm
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In our area the major blockade seems to be the assurance that the proper mechanics will be implemented and followed. That we won't just have an extra body on the floor, thus extra whistles. We have started a program in the AAU and summer leagues where we use the three man system and the result will hopefully be the coaches will see how well it works and they won't be as gun shy. In terms of money we have offered to give them three for the current cost of two, and if you do the math three man assignments equates out to more assignments per guy hence more money.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 04:06pm
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Question

Thank you! Looking for more responses.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 04:34pm
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In our area, resistance is strong. We still use two man for the state tournament. That being said, some of the smaller schools have discussed going to the three man within their conference. The rational. If I am going to get four people to come out and call two varsity games, Why can't we save someone and bring three to call two games. Especially if they are going to be sending second and third year officials calling their first varsity game. Why not put two veterans with a new face versus two man where one is a new face.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 04:44pm
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quote:
Originally posted by KidKJ on 01-21-2000 03:05 PM
In terms of money we have offered to give them three for the current cost of two, and if you do the math three man assignments equates out to more assignments per guy hence more money.


Must be the new math.

Yes, each official is, on average, working 1.5 times as many games, but each is earning 2/3 the amount for each game. Net result: No gain.

Or, the total amount paid by the schools is the same. The number of officials overall hasn't changed (as a result of this). So, the average amount earned per official must be the same.)

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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 05:35pm
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Red face

This post is mainly for Thom but also for any who feel 3 are not as good as 2. Many schools in my area feel the cost is the prohibitive factor in using 3. I work 3-man 6-8 times a season with different refs and all have done a fine job. The more you work 3-man the better you are at it's machanics. The players know that the extra set of eyes will catch the "off-the-ball" problems. In a fast-paced, intense game the third official is definitely
needed.
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 06:00pm
KDM KDM is offline
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Maybe I can offer some insight. Our association has been using 3-man in every High School game since the 1991/1992 season.
Nine years later, we are still the only association in our state that uses 3-man in every one of our games. All of the other associations are using 3-man in selected games only or only in tournament play.

Here are the advantages of using 3-man:
-More experience officials stay in the association and work longer in years due to the decrease of wear and tear physically.
-less experienced officials are given more opportunities to work than ever before. -younger officials are easier to recruit using the 3-man.
-since experienced officials are around longer, they offer great assistance in training first-hand the younger guys/gals.
-younger officials tend to learn quicker 'how to officiate' when two officials are offering insight at halftime and between games.
-less room for misintrepretation of rules. 3 heads are better than 2.
-finally, better court coverage and off-the-ball officiating.

The biggest con:
-can't afford 3. And most of the time it came from the larger schools that were taking the kids to out-of-state Christmas tournaments and/or bought new uniforms each year. The money was there, they didn't want to spend it on officials.

We were fortunate to have a Supervisor and Assigning Officer that had the ability to sell the 3-man concept to the coaches, AD's, and principals. Quite honestly, the first 2 or 3 years are when we had the most problems. But that was to be expected since the transition is very dramatic. However, the last 4 or 5 years have been fantastic. I think now, that most of the schools would not want to return to the 2-man crew.


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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 06:25pm
KDM KDM is offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Thom on 01-21-2000 03:04 PM
As a former official and now coach I venture my personal feelings Re. 3 officials.
It is hard enough to get 2 officials that are consistent. It is nearly impossible to get 3.
I think if you have 3 officials that everyone should get 6 fouls instead of 5.
One of the reasons for going to 3 officials was the pretense that it would "clean up the overly physical nature of the game, particularly the inside game". I submit that the game is more physical now than any any time prior. (It hasn't accomplished this)
I can never remember thinking at the end of a game that it was a good thing they had 3 officials instead of only 2.
I will take 2 good officials over 3 mediocre ones anytime.
I have seen very few games with 3 officials where it wasn't obvious that 1 of the three was either intimidated or noticeably inferior to the others.
I am not "anti-official". The only "T" I have ever had was for a scorebook violation.
I have a great deal of respect for officials because I know personally how difficult the job is. I just do not feel that having 3 officials has added anything positive to the game. If having more officials was truly better I think we would be up to 4 or 5 by now.
I also want to say that since my "discovery" of this page a couple of months ago that I have learned more about the rules and the views and philosophies about officiating than I have in all of the years I have been involved with basketball. The participants here are the most knowledgeable, candid and conscientious officials I have yet to encounter. You guys (gals) can call my games anytime.



Thom,

What do you coach?

Why don't you use 1 official and you won't have to worry about consistency. With 1 official you can drop the number of fouls to 3 instead of 5. The inside game has gotten more physical and I agree. But it is not the sole responsibility of the officials. Evidently, coaches as yourself, are teaching more agressive behavior. But don't dare mention that the kids are bigger and stronger today than ever before. Don't mention that kids now play b'ball 12 months out of the years versus 3 months a few years ago. And please don't mention the fact that there more games on tv and the kids attempt to duplicate the Dennis Rodman's of the world. Oh no, blame it on the refs.....

You see, we officials think 3 coaches are way too many on any one team. Should be 1 head coach and that's all. I'll take 1 good head coach versus 4 or 5 mediocre assistants any day of the week. After all, the teams that have 3 or more coaches, it never fails that these guys are intimidated by the parents and the school administration. But most of the time, they are just plain inferior. Hey, look at the money you could save by getting rid of these do-nothing assistants.

Now look, I'm not 'anti-coach'. I just think that by having more coaches it would make the game and the kids better, and it just hasn't.

And right, I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with a call by an official from this web site.

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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 06:52pm
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quote:
Originally posted by Buckley on 01-21-2000 11:46 AM
I am inquiring about high schools in your areas and their feelings on 3 man mechanics. In my area, there are some conferences and or individual schools very much in favor of 3-man officiating crews and are in fact implementing 3-man, while other conferences or schools/coaches/AD's strongly oppose it. Please respond to the pro's and cons of 3-man officiating as expressed by your area coaches, AD's, etc. How are your area schools/conferences successfully implementing 3-man based on some of the roadblocks (ie. funding, officials shortages, etc.)

Thanks in advanced for your input.


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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 06:56pm
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Three-man is on the way to Montana. Due to the numbers of schools that need their games serviced and the distance factor for officials to get to these games, I see in the fairly short future that 3-man will go and do the sub-varsity games and then the varsity games all in one "bang." I wonder though, do you think three-man extends the officiating life of weaker officials as well as the stronger officials?
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 10:44pm
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Here in Alaska the 4A teams in Anchorage were using 3Man but when it came to state tournament time it was 2 Man. This year it's 2 man all over the state. The game and kids are getting faster and we are getting (slower) older. The idea of having more experience on the court is very catching. The extra set of eyes to watch off ball, where most of the new plays are starting, picks and screens etc.

As an association we have offered to work 3 Man for the same price as 2 man and 2 of the 3 would work the preceeding varsity game. I wonder if the coachs really want to have an extra set of eyes?

------------------
Don
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Old Fri Jan 21, 2000, 10:56pm
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To KDM,
Please don't take it personally. I'm certainly not beating up on officials. I just don't feel as though the three official system has proven to be better than the old two official system. Someone started this thread and asked for opinions and I gave them some based upon my observations.
I share your views about mediocre coaches. Just proves that more isn't necessarily better.
And no, I don't argue calls with any official. Very seldom even venture an opinion during a game (or afterwards). I don't believe that an official is going to become better at what he does because I'm "working him (her)."
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Old Sat Jan 22, 2000, 10:18pm
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Here in Nevada we are in our 2nd year of 3-person officiating at the 4A level only. The lower 3 leagues still use 2-person.

We are paid $100.00 for two officials and $120.00 for three, so we earn less doing 3-person.

The state athletics administrator said a few years ago that we would go 3-person when we get 2-person right. So, I guess we are doing something correct.

As AlaskaRef said, at the highest levels of high school basketball, the game is too fast for two officials and our 3A league is getting close to being almost as difficult.

To the original contributor, I think 3-person mechanics gives the game more quality fouls. How many times in your games has the the person who retaliates get the foul? With 3 officials we are seeing a lot of this off ball activity where we would miss it with two. As a coach you probably set up plays away from the ball where you hoped officials would not concentrating. I'm not accusing you of doing anything illegal, just expanding the rules to your advantage.

We too have a hard time filling all assignments. A week ago Friday, after the teams had not played due to testing, we had so many games that official were doing a game then jumping into their car to go to another site to do another game. 3-person does not help this situation but it does give newer officials the opportunity to do more games (Freshman and Junior Varsity) which in turn raises his experience level.

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