traveling or pushing??

[81artmonk]

Badnewsref, please do not miss qoute me. I never said what you posted in a box as what I origanally said.

I also went back and reviewed what I said to see what might have brought about such debate, and I believe it was the rule book statement telling the ref he was wrong. Oh well. Like I said, I'm done. Having marinated on this debate I have come to see that we just don't see eye to eye. And that's ok, cause that is what makes this forum good. Even though I get the impression that you guys see me as a A**hole coach who is arrogant and thinks he knows it all, I'm really not. I appreciate all your input so I can be a better coach and learn. I just never thought that one statement would spark such debate. I truelly hope that this doesn't tarnish your openess to share your knowledge with schmucks like me!!
thanks

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I also went back and reviewed what I said to see what might have brought about such debate, and I believe it was the rule book statement telling the ref he was wrong.

It seems it was partly that, and also your incorrect statement regarding incidental contact. Most here would agree on two things: a coach should never approach an official with a rule book at a later date with a "I'm right and you're wrong" approach - especially regarding a scenario that is completely judgement-based, like your original post. (Which, by the way, if it happened just as you described certainly sounds like it could have been a foul, but we'll never know because we didn't see it.)

Secondly, having you tell us that you do approach officials when they "get something wrong," and then having you demonstrate that you don't understand the basic rules regarding incidental contact resulting in a violation AND traveling, plus saying that these officials in your games SHOULDN'T call all violations, puts your premise in question. I think that's all that was being suggested.

The bottom line is, what happened in your game may or may not have been a foul. The official calling it may or may not have seen the same thing you did. We're not perfect, coaches aren't perfect, players aren't perfect. But your posting style certainly suggests that you expect us to be and you feel you have a greater understanding of the rules than the officials calling your games. I'd suggest simply not making that assumption from now on, asking for explanations from officials when you feel you need them, and after the game if you determine the official improperly applied a rule - not made a judgement call differently than you would have - you should talk to the assignor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Having marinated on this debate I have come to see that we just don't see eye to eye.

And now you're stewing about it. How appropriate.

[Back In The Saddle]

So let's just recap briefly. The ref's you've shown the rulebook to didn't respond favorably. The refs here didn't respond favorably when you described this tactic either. I'd have to say that this just isn't working for you, Coach. Perhaps it's time to try a new approach.

I was sincere when I extended my welcome to you to the forum. I still feel the same way. You obviously came here looking for informed answers. Whether or not you expected to get such a different point of view, I hope you'll find it valuable.

[Adam]

I'm going to add my two bits here.
The ref you talked about in the original post was right. It's a judgment call. You're wrong in saying it's not open to interpretation. Look at rule 4-27; it clearly states that foul calls are jugdment calls. If a player pushes another one, and that other player later travels, it doesn't mean the relationship between the two events is causal. That's for the ref the determine.

If the ref thinks the push did not cause the travel (maybe he thought she was off balance before or maybe he thought she gathered herself first), then he's going to call the travel. If the ref thinks the push caused the travel, he'll call the push.

The fact is, it's a judgment call for which the responsibility is on two people in the gym.
Furthermore, most middle school refs are struggling with how to apply these things. He may have initially thought the contact was incidental and didn't want to come in with the late foul. I've called the late foul on this play; but it takes some experience to do that.

[81artmonk]

Jurassic Referee.......You are just rude and cranky!!! That statement simply says that I had thought about what was said and that having taken it in, I don't agree with some of it. To make the assumption that I am mad and stewing about it is a stretch and putting words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it. My last post I thought was extremely gracious and extending an olive branch to you guys for arguing, and your last post to me was not. For your information I am not stewing, I am not mad, but having read your post I now am. Thanks. To you other REFS who responded after my last post, I greatly thank you for your graciousness and openness and kindness for sharing with me. It gives me hope that we can all debate without being rude and condecending.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Jurassic Referee.......You are just rude and cranky!!!

It gives me hope that we can all debate without being rude and condecending.

You spelled "condescending" wrong.

Other than that, for the first time, I pretty much gotta agree with you. Resume marinating.

[BillyMac]

I worked a boys varsity game Friday night with the highest ranked partner that I've worked with in a long time. In our post-game conference he said that he wanted one call back. A-1 was dribbling in the backcourt near the sideline when he got slightly bumped by B-1. According to my partner, A-1 was able to dribble "through" the slight bump, so my partner passed on the foul. The next thing to happen, was A-1 stepping on the sideline, with my partner awarding the ball to Team B for a throw-in. Unfortunately, this happened right in front of the Team A bench and Team A coach, who gave my partner an earful. My partner, in our post-game conference, said that he had wished that he had called the foul.

If officiating was easy, they wouldn't need to pay each of us $80.00 a game to get qualified officials. If officiating was easy, we wouldn't need to constantly go to clinics. If officiating was easy, there would be no need for a forum, such as this one. It's hard to do. If you've never done it, you don't know what it's like to be in our shoes.