...so I ran him...

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, I like your little smilies, although I don't appreciate the "BS" implications. Why can't we just agree to disagree without getting vulgar?

I gotta admit, I'm quite surprised by the response to this thread. I respect most of you very much, and have learned a lot from almost all of you. I know that sometimes the format here gets in the way of us fully understanding what we're saying to each other, but I suspect there's more to this disagreement than that. So because in general your opinions are important to me, and I'd like to explore what's going on here so I can "do better next time", could we find a way to continue this as a discussion, rather than an arguement? Even after considering the various opinions, I don't feel that what I did today was a disservice to The Game, but I'm willing to change my mind.

A lot of the refs that were working at this tournament today are very good refs, that are committed to always doing a great job. This wasn't the hacks and slackers that just want to take their checks and go home. How do I weigh their opinions against those that I'm hearing here? People I respect equally, and who I suspect would respect each other, who are completely opposite on this one thing. Is there a way to discuss this out to some sort of resolution?

"Lots and lots of fouls that we passed on because the clock was ticking on toward the next game."


Sorry, but I highly doubt that I'd respect any official that supported this philosophy, nor would I be passing on them if I was in that situation.

I've done countless tournaments over the years, with countless tournament directors worrying about staying on schedule and making suggestions about it, and not once have I passed on calls just to keep anyone on schedule. They don't want to use me again fine, I'd rather not work for someone that would trade player safety for staying on schedule anyway.

Discussion requires an alternate point of view worthy of consideration, that is not the case here.

[JRutledge]

Let me say this to you. I was in a HS tournament this year where we where told very explicitly to "let them play" and keep the games moving. This tournament involved some of the top D1 prospects in the country and they wanted us to allow the players to showcase their talent and keep the games on time. Now we tried to do that to the best of our ability. But after a few games we just called our game. Not much we could do then just our best.

I have no problem if everyone you worked with was doing the same thing. I also feel that many times we live in fantasy world or a very moralistic ideology on this web site mainly because we are after all reading something in basically black and white. Real world officiating does not work like that. We make all kinds of judgments based on other factors. If you were not calling fouls because there were outside pressures insisting you do so, that is not something most of us can say from here. In most situations I would never let some things go because of time frame, but you were working a 7th grade boys game that are not always the most well played games around. I do not have a major problem with your approach because most of us have been in a similar situation and I seriously doubt they pitched too much of a fit over it.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Discussion requires an alternate point of view worthy of consideration, that is not the case here.

Okay, you don't respect me, and nothing I could say could change your mind about that. I can respect that.

Anyone who feels there's some possibility that there might be some middle ground here? Anyone who can see past the us-them black-white mentality to something approaching the possibility of judgment, flexibility, team work?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay, you don't respect me, and nothing I could say could change your mind about that. I can respect that.

Anyone who feels there's some possibility that there might be some middle ground here? Anyone who can see past the us-them black-white mentality to something approaching the possibility of judgment, flexibility, team work?

Do not feel bad. I think BZ does not like anyone that does not think exactly like him.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Real world officiating does not work like that. We make all kinds of judgments based on other factors. If you were not calling fouls because there were outside pressures insisting you do so, that is not something most of us can say from here. In most situations I would never let some things go because of time frame, but you were working a 7th grade boys game that are not always the most well played games around. I do not have a major problem with your approach because most of us have been in a similar situation and I seriously doubt they pitched too much of a fit over it.

Thank you for seeing past the rhetoric. I get the feeling maybe I just didn't explain the situation very well. Good grief, we didn't pass on anything important, and we certainly didn't favor one team or the other. We called what needed to be called, but there were just tons and tons of little bumps, unskilled arm knocks, jostles, stumbles, travels that may or may not have been caused by marginal contact, the usual low-level 7th grade stuff. Would I have called it tighter if left to myself? Yes. But I also understand the need for "real world pressures" as you say, Jeff, to be considered. If it had been a school game instead of a rec league thing, and I'd have called it my way, it would have taken two and a half hours, or more. We called it pretty tight in the first half, and they just weren't learning. So we just started letting a lot of the A/D borderline stuff go. I can't see how that's selling my soul for a mess of pottage.

[BayStateRef]

I had an experience today that contains some of the elements you had. I was working with a new partner in a travel league that I work every week. He was helping out the assignor. It became clear very early that we were not on the same page. He was surely competent -- both in rules and mechanics -- but he really wasn't interested in "working" these games.

I work every game properly. I hustle, I switch, I apply rules properly and fairly. He did none of those things -- and clearly resented my efforts to make him work better. He told me that he doesn't discipline coaches because nothing good comes of it.

We got through the first game OK, but the second game was a problem with the visiting coach, who made it clear she did not like our officiating. She was upset that we did not call enough fouls. In the first half, her team was shooting double bonus and in the second half, there were nine fouls against the other team and three against hers. I thought we handled the game fine. Not perfect, but fine.

After the game, she was demanding names, phone numbers, lawyers names (just joking) and anything else she could.

Did I mention this was 5th grade girls? Division 4. (Division 1 is the "best.") Her players were not as good as the other team. That's why they lost.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

So we just started letting a lot of the A/D borderline stuff go. I can't see how that's selling my soul for a mess of pottage.

I have worked games where I was assigned one place and had to quickly go to the other. Then told by the assignor to "do not take very long" on the first game. It happens to the best of us and in many situations. Sometimes it is the AD or coach that wants to go home early. I will say usually in basketball it does not happen where people are openly trying to go home early. I can tell you as a Baseball Umpire and past Softball Umpire, it is common to have a coach in the pre-game introductions to tell the umpires to get the game over with. In basketball it is a more subtle when that point is being made. I worked two freshman games last Monday and the home coach was insisting on convincing the visiting coach to have a very short half-time and even talked about a shortened game to "get you guys home."

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

lots and lots of fouls that we passed on because the clock was ticking on toward the next game.

You are not the first to take this approach, but I personally find it totally unacceptable.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I wasn't on my turf, just helping out a friend, and I didn't realize the philosophy before I got into it. ........
it didn't seem to me that I had the right to impose myself on a whole different situation than I'm used to.

I'm not sure I understand what this part means. You are there to call 1/3 or 1/2 of a ball game, it seems to me quite necessary to "impose yourself" on the situation. Where exactly was this, as opposed to "your turf"?

Originally Posted by rainmaker

........we didn't pass on anything important,.......... We called what needed to be called........ we just started letting a lot of the A/D borderline stuff go. I can't see how that's selling my soul for a mess of pottage.

This sounds a lot like backpeddling to me. I'm not sure what pottage is. Anything like potted meat? Careful, you know what they say is in there.

All right, then.*


*Carl......Sling Blade

[swkansasref33]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay, you don't respect me, and nothing I could say could change your mind about that. I can respect that.

Anyone who feels there's some possibility that there might be some middle ground here? Anyone who can see past the us-them black-white mentality to something approaching the possibility of judgment, flexibility, team work?

It really depends on the style of basketball... in a 7th grade boys game, I usually will not call a LOT of fouls.. I call the obvious, blatant ones... if something happens inside that doesn't give one player the advantage, and there are a couple bodies around, i most likely wont call it. but if it is out in the open, and its a foul, i call it. The ones down in the paint, or with 2-3 bodies around, I may or may not call it. it depends on the severity and whether or not it gives an advantage to one player/team. If the coach says anything, I can just reply with "coach, you must have had a different angle than i did" or "my view was blocked coach, i couldnt get a look at the play from any angle i took", and the complaining usually stops there. I know a lot of people may disagree with this, but to each his/her own.

[Adam]

I think part of the problem is people read what you wrote and make assumptions about what you meant. I think we've all been there in 7th grade games; you realize if you call everything, you're going to be there all day. What's more, the kids aren't going to learn how to play if you call every travel and double dribble and foul. Your bar for "advantage" goes up a bit sometimes.
That said, saying it the way you did insinuates that you just want to get in and get out with your check. I know you well enough through this forum to know that's not your schtick; so I figured you weren't letting felonies go for the sake of staying on schedule.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think part of the problem is people read what you wrote and make assumptions about what you meant. I think we've all been there in 7th grade games; you realize if you call everything, you're going to be there all day. What's more, the kids aren't going to learn how to play if you call every travel and double dribble and foul. Your bar for "advantage" goes up a bit sometimes.
That said, saying it the way you did insinuates that you just want to get in and get out with your check. I know you well enough through this forum to know that's not your schtick; so I figured you weren't letting felonies go for the sake of staying on schedule.

So maybe I just didn't word it very well? I'll try again. I was "letting them play." I was "holding the whistle". I was "adjusting to my partner". I was "looking for the A/D". I was "trying to be in control without being controlling". The reason I was doing this was because that's how my partner, who I was trying to help by filling in, told me they do it. I was "adjusting to fit into the prevailing culture -- trying to call it the way the assignor wants it called." It wasn't a problem in the first game, we called what needed calling, and we got done in a good time with no one too ticked off. Somehow the second game was different. Will I do it again? No way. I compromised on my style and "my game", but I don't think I compromised my morals or ethics. I wasn't "selling out The Game". It wasn't "immoral". It also wasn't comfortable or pleasant, and I don't want to be in that situation again.

It wasn't "take the check and run." In fact, my partner and I stayed and talked about the situation for quite a while afterward during the next game. He's a top notch ref, and I wanted to know how he could let so much go and feel okay about it. It was a valuable learning experience. Although I've learned more I expected after sharing here!!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

So maybe I just didn't word it very well? I'll try again. I was "letting them play." I was "holding the whistle". I was "adjusting to my partner".

Go back, edit your 1st post, and just leave in the part about running the coach.

[Dan_ref]

There was recently a dust-up about every game being as important as the next game blah blah blah. The first sentence of your original post got my attention because I read it as you saying this game was *so* unimportant that you stopped blowing the whistle to keep it moving along.

I am definitely not in the "every game is as important as every other game" camp but I have also never let keeping the games on schedule get in the way of me calling the game right. Maybe it was just your wording but the idea you got across to me was that you stopped blowing in order to get the game done. IMO if the directors are concerned about the day's schedule they need to add 15 minutes or so to the allotted time for each game.

That said, sounds like a good T and ejection.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, I like your little smilies, although I don't appreciate the "BS" implications. Why can't we just agree to disagree without getting vulgar?

Vulgar? Since when did a smiley holding a BS sign become vulgar and since when did you start being so sensitive?

I gotta admit, I'm quite surprised by the response to this thread. I respect most of you very much, and have learned a lot from almost all of you. I know that sometimes the format here gets in the way of us fully understanding what we're saying to each other, but I suspect there's more to this disagreement than that. So because in general your opinions are important to me, and I'd like to explore what's going on here so I can "do better next time", could we find a way to continue this as a discussion, rather than an arguement? Even after considering the various opinions, I don't feel that what I did today was a disservice to The Game, but I'm willing to change my mind.

I don't know if you did a disservice to the game or not? I only know what you wrote. Did you not describe it well? I don't know that either. All I can go on is what you wrote. "lots and lots of fouls that we passed on because the clock was ticking on toward the next game. Both coaches complaining about the no-calls about equally."

Do you want to know what that sounds like? You ignored a lot of calls because you wanted the game to be over. Coaches complained, you ignored more, until finally, one of them snapped. You know what? I would have snapped, too.

Now, hopefully that isn't what happened, but I think that's how it came across to most of us.

[chrs_schuster]

Rainmaker, I wasn't there. Didn't see it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but 7th grade boys games are brutal, the coach thinks he's Bobby Knight and all the parents think there little Johnny is the next Micheal Jordan. Just T him up, put his seat belt on. Your emotions got the best of you, "tough game, tough coach" you lost it for a moment. Sounds like that to me. I try to stay as far away of those games as humanly possible. I did those games earlier in my career and I almost quite reffing because of it.