Swinging Elbows: Violation or Foul?

[mjbofficial]

I always thought that this was a personal foul against the player, but when looking at the mechanics in the manuals, the call appears to be a violation. Which is it?

[cmathews]

contact=foul
no contact=violation

[Ref Daddy]

Originally Posted by mjbofficial

I always thought that this was a personal foul against the player, but when looking at the mechanics in the manuals, the call appears to be a violation. Which is it?

Excessive and dangerous swinging of the Elbows - without contact - is a violation.

Swinging with contact made is a Personal Foul.

[mjbofficial]

Thanks for the clarification. If contact is made, is it intentional or flagrant? Does it just depend on the severity of the contact?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mjbofficial

Thanks for the clarification. If contact is made, is it intentional or flagrant? Does it just depend on the severity of the contact?

It could be I, F, common or PC, depending on the situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It could be I, F, common or PC, depending on the situation.

And TC also.....

[Ref Daddy]

Originally Posted by mjbofficial

Thanks for the clarification. If contact is made, is it intentional or flagrant? Does it just depend on the severity of the contact?

Note there may not be contact.

Coach's teach to clear a rebound by clearing out. Elbows are involved. In my games they better stay down and tight.

[deecee]

if a defender turns normally with elbows out and a defender has his ol face where it shouldnt be -- ie right on the pivoting player -- and gets it in the chin with an elbow what do you got?

i got no call. there is a difference between swinging and pivoting and protecting the ball.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by deecee

if a defender turns normally with elbows out and a defender has his ol face where it shouldnt be -- ie right on the pivoting player -- and gets it in the chin with an elbow what do you got?

i got no call. there is a difference between swinging and pivoting and protecting the ball.

If the defender was at his spot first and the player with the ball pivots into him, that sounds like a Player Control Foul to me.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

if a defender turns normally with elbows out and a defender has his ol face where it shouldnt be -- ie right on the pivoting player -- and gets it in the chin with an elbow what do you got?

i got no call. there is a difference between swinging and pivoting and protecting the ball.

The difference is that pivoting without swinging will not be a violation but it is still possible to be a foul. In the case you mention, why shouldn't the defenders face be there??? I allow defenders to keep their heads on top of their torsos...and I expect the defenders to get right up to the opponent. They don't have to give them ANY room whatsoever. If the defender is there, they player with the ball should go the other way.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Ref Daddy

Note there may not be contact.

Coach's teach to clear a rebound by clearing out. Elbows are involved. In my games they better stay down and tight.

Some coaches teach to chin and pivot as specified in rules reference below. You're gonna lose a game check when we bet on this one...


Rule 4 SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Some coaches teach to chin and pivot as specified in rules reference below. You're gonna lose a game check when we bet on this one...


Rule 4 SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

You're trying to apply NCAA rules to a discussion of NFHS situations.

S rule 4-24-8
It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs when:
a) Arms and elbows are swung while using the shoulders as a pivot, and the speed of the extended arms and elbose is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or pivot foot.
b) the aggressiveness with which the arms and elbows are swung could cause injury to another player if contacted.

You might serve a suspension if you try to argue a rule using a ruleset that doesn't apply. Would that cost you a game check?

[Ron Giacoma]

Originally Posted by mjbofficial

I always thought that this was a personal foul against the player, but when looking at the mechanics in the manuals, the call appears to be a violation. Which is it?

This is the first time for me to talk on this site: . Please educate me on the process as I do not know how this works. I hope someone sees this answer. Anyway, the Rules book calls this a Violation if the elbow swinging is "excessive". If the swinging involves contact, then we have a "foul". Please contact me at [email protected]

[deecee]

why contact you via email -- this is a forum to discuss issues

THIS IS SIMPLE

NO CONTACT = VIOLATION (LIKE TRAVEL, OOB, 3 SECONDS, DOUBLE DRIBBLE ETC.)

IF CONTACT = COMMON FOUL, INTENTIONAL FOUL, FLAGRANT FOUL, TEAM CONTROL FOUL ETC.

THIS ALL COVERS THE TERM EXCESSIVE -- On a normal pivot with the offensive player chinning the ball and protecting it -- elbow to defnse contact will either be PC, Defensive foul or No call. Up to your judgement

[shave-tail]

NO CONTACT = VIOLATION (LIKE TRAVEL, OOB, 3 SECONDS, DOUBLE DRIBBLE ETC.)

What signal is used for the violation?