offense penalized

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

Came a cross an interesting sitution during a rules discussion with a fellow HS official. I was applying NCAA rules and he pointed out that NFHS is different in this case. The question is, When and how is the offensive team penalized when the defensive team commits a violation?

OK. Here is exactly how I worded it to the FHSAA and NFHS. Sorry it is rather wordy. But when dealing with the FHSAA it pays to be thorough as they are not exactly rules people.

I believe there is contradiction between rules 4.42 art. 5, Rule 9-4, and Rule 6-4 art. 5. (NFHS) I think that this conflict can be resolved with a simple modification of rule 4.42, art. 5.



NFHS Rule 4.42 art 5 states that, “the throw in ends when the passed ball touches, or is touched by, another player who is either in bounds or out of bounds.” Rule 9-4 states that a player shall not intentionally kick the ball as in Rule 4-29. Rule 6-4, art. 5 states that the opportunity to make an AP throw in is lost if the throw in team violates, but does not lose the AP arrow if either team fouls. The key word in Rule 4-42, art. 5 is “touches”. Even though an intentional kick is considered illegal (and a violation), it is still touched when kicked and the team making the AP throw in would lose the arrow because of the “illegal” touch by the defensive team.



I think that rule 4.42 art. 5 needs to be amended and the phrase, “legally touched”, should be added to the rule. Below I have provided a scenario describing the rule as written and the same play with the rule changed. No case book play could be found pertaining to this play.



Applied as currently written:

Team A is awarded a throw in as a result of an AP situation. The throw in is made by Team A, but is intentionally kicked by Team B. Rule 9-4 defines a kick as a violation, if intentional, but a kick is still a touch. Therefore, Team A is now awarded a second throw in because of the kicked ball violation by Team B, and Team A subsequently loses the AP arrow because Team B committed a violation by kicking the throw in, but they touched the ball as required by Rule 4.42 art. 5., therefore ending the throw in and having the AP arrow switched to the direction of Team B. Ultimately, Team B committed a violation and was rewarded for that. Under no other situations is a team rewarded because they committed a violation of any kind.



Applied as revised:

Team A is awarded a throw in as a result of an AP situation. The throw in is made by Team A, but is intentionally kicked by Team B. Because the ball was not “legally” touched by a player that was inbounds or out of bounds, the AP throw in did not end. Team A would then be awarded a throw in as a result of the kicking violation by Team B, and would not lose the arrow since they did not commit a violation, as references in Rule 6-4, art 5. The AP arrow will stay pointed towards Team A’s basket, giving Team A the opportunity to make the next AP throw in.

Not only does this change remove any contradiction among the three rules referenced, but also creates consistency between the NFHS rules and the NCAA rules.

This happened last year in the womens NCAA tourney. UT v UNC.

Thanks for all of the input

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

OK. Here is exactly how I worded it to the FHSAA and NFHS. Sorry it is rather wordy. But when dealing with the FHSAA it pays to be thorough as they are not exactly rules people.

I believe there is contradiction between rules 4.42 art. 5, Rule 9-4, and Rule 6-4 art. 5. (NFHS) I think that this conflict can be resolved with a simple modification of rule 4.42, art. 5.



NFHS Rule 4.42 art 5 states that, “the throw in ends when the passed ball touches, or is touched by, another player who is either in bounds or out of bounds.” Rule 9-4 states that a player shall not intentionally kick the ball as in Rule 4-29. Rule 6-4, art. 5 states that the opportunity to make an AP throw in is lost if the throw in team violates, but does not lose the AP arrow if either team fouls. The key word in Rule 4-42, art. 5 is “touches”. Even though an intentional kick is considered illegal (and a violation), it is still touched when kicked and the team making the AP throw in would lose the arrow because of the “illegal” touch by the defensive team.



I think that rule 4.42 art. 5 needs to be amended and the phrase, “legally touched”, should be added to the rule. Below I have provided a scenario describing the rule as written and the same play with the rule changed. No case book play could be found pertaining to this play.



Applied as currently written:

Team A is awarded a throw in as a result of an AP situation. The throw in is made by Team A, but is intentionally kicked by Team B. Rule 9-4 defines a kick as a violation, if intentional, but a kick is still a touch. Therefore, Team A is now awarded a second throw in because of the kicked ball violation by Team B, and Team A subsequently loses the AP arrow because Team B committed a violation by kicking the throw in, but they touched the ball as required by Rule 4.42 art. 5., therefore ending the throw in and having the AP arrow switched to the direction of Team B. Ultimately, Team B committed a violation and was rewarded for that. Under no other situations is a team rewarded because they committed a violation of any kind.



Applied as revised:

Team A is awarded a throw in as a result of an AP situation. The throw in is made by Team A, but is intentionally kicked by Team B. Because the ball was not “legally” touched by a player that was inbounds or out of bounds, the AP throw in did not end. Team A would then be awarded a throw in as a result of the kicking violation by Team B, and would not lose the arrow since they did not commit a violation, as references in Rule 6-4, art 5. The AP arrow will stay pointed towards Team A’s basket, giving Team A the opportunity to make the next AP throw in.

Not only does this change remove any contradiction among the three rules referenced, but also creates consistency between the NFHS rules and the NCAA rules.

This happened last year in the womens NCAA tourney. UT v UNC.

Thanks for all of the input

We already discussed the heck out of this sitch. Some one find the link...

[d1ref2b]

My apologies then. Would have thought someone would have gotten it correct then or at least contacted the NFHS to fix the rule as written.

[cmathews]

so you are saying that A will now have the opportunity to complete the throw in, and retain the arrow????? or would you have them switch the arrow after the "legally" completed throw in

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by cmathews

so you are saying that A will now have the opportunity to complete the throw in, and retain the arrow????? or would you have them switch the arrow after the "legally" completed throw in

As currently written Team A would lose the arrow because Team B touched the ball, albeit by kicking it.

I want the rule to be revised that the throw in ends when the ball is LEGALLY touched. Now it states that the throw in ends when the ball is touched. So if Team A is making an AP throw in and Team B kicks the initial throw, Team A now has a throw in for the violation and retains the arrow. A team can not lose the arrow unless that team violates. This is how the rule is administered in the NCAA.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

As currently written Team A would lose the arrow because Team B touched the ball, albeit by kicking it.

I want the rule to be revised that the throw in ends when the ball is LEGALLY touched. Now it states that the throw in ends when the ball is touched. So if Team A is making an AP throw in and Team B kicks the initial throw, Team A now has a throw in for the violation and retains the arrow. A team can not lose the arrow unless that team violates. This is how the rule is administered in the NCAA.

so you are in essence saying that A will get the throw in because of the kicked ball now. When that throw in is completed, they also will keep the arrow?

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by cmathews

so you are in essence saying that A will get the throw in because of the kicked ball now. When that throw in is completed, they also will keep the arrow?

Yes. They are now making a throw in for the kicking violation. Since the AP throw in was not "legally" touched on the court it never ended. Team A retains the arrow for the next AP throw in

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

My apologies then. Would have thought someone would have gotten it correct then or at least contacted the NFHS to fix the rule as written.

I don't see a need to fix anything. Why should A benefit because they have a lousy player who can not inbound the ball so his own player is 1st to touch or posess the ball?

The rule isn't broken so no need to fix.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I don't see a need to fix anything. Why should A benefit because they have a lousy player who can not inbound the ball so his own player is 1st to touch or posess the ball?

The rule isn't broken so no need to fix.

d12b, see what I mean?

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

d12b, see what I mean?

Unfortunately no. It is beyond having a bad player. Rules are NOT consistent on this point in NFHS.

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I don't see a need to fix anything. Why should A benefit because they have a lousy player who can not inbound the ball so his own player is 1st to touch or posess the ball?

The rule isn't broken so no need to fix.

It is broken. A kick is not a legal touch. If it was we wouldn't have a violation for intentionally kicking the ball. Kicking is a violation. Again, throw in team can not lose the arrow unless they violate. The set of rules governing this situation are contradictory.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

We already discussed the heck out of this sitch. Some one find the link...

Throw-in ends

See posts 4 through 8-ish.

[Adam]

A is not entitled to a successful throwin from the arrow, only the opportunity. I think the rule should be amended to change the arrow once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. As it is, the offense is not penalized. They already got the ball due to the arrow, are you suggesting that the defense should be penalized more for kicking the ball during an AP throwin than they are during a normal throwin?

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A is not entitled to a successful throwin from the arrow, only the opportunity. I think the rule should be amended to change the arrow once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. As it is, the offense is not penalized. They already got the ball due to the arrow, are you suggesting that the defense should be penalized more for kicking the ball during an AP throwin than they are during a normal throwin?

No, the defense is penalized for committing a kicked ball violation as would be in the NCAA. Team A now gets a throw in for the kicking violation. I just am seeking comsistency between the 2 sets of rules. Team A can not lose the arrow unless they violate. Why should they lose the arrow if team B violates (kicks the ball).

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

No, the defense is penalized for committing a kicked ball violation as would be in the NCAA. Team A now gets a throw in for the kicking violation. I just am seeking comsistency between the 2 sets of rules. Team A can not lose the arrow unless they violate. Why should they lose the arrow if team B violates (kicks the ball).

It depends on your definition of completing a throw-in. I agree with you d1ref2b (I like that moniker, btw). but others feel that when B touches the ball whether legally or illegally, the throw-in is completed and the arrow given up. whether it is a kick or a hand touch is irrelevant in these people's eyes. That's not my opinion, btw, I'm just expressing what I"ve heard before.

And in their argurement you should also note that if B touches it with their hand, and swats it oob, they've violated by causing the ball to go out of bounds. So in that case, A loses the arrow on a B violation by your and my thinking. But that other thought process figures that the throw-in was complete when the ball was touched either legally or illegally, so A gives up the arrow.