offense penalized

[cmathews]

so you are saying that A will now have the opportunity to complete the throw in, and retain the arrow????? or would you have them switch the arrow after the "legally" completed throw in

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by cmathews

so you are saying that A will now have the opportunity to complete the throw in, and retain the arrow????? or would you have them switch the arrow after the "legally" completed throw in

As currently written Team A would lose the arrow because Team B touched the ball, albeit by kicking it.

I want the rule to be revised that the throw in ends when the ball is LEGALLY touched. Now it states that the throw in ends when the ball is touched. So if Team A is making an AP throw in and Team B kicks the initial throw, Team A now has a throw in for the violation and retains the arrow. A team can not lose the arrow unless that team violates. This is how the rule is administered in the NCAA.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

My apologies then. Would have thought someone would have gotten it correct then or at least contacted the NFHS to fix the rule as written.

I don't see a need to fix anything. Why should A benefit because they have a lousy player who can not inbound the ball so his own player is 1st to touch or posess the ball?

The rule isn't broken so no need to fix.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I don't see a need to fix anything. Why should A benefit because they have a lousy player who can not inbound the ball so his own player is 1st to touch or posess the ball?

The rule isn't broken so no need to fix.

d12b, see what I mean?

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I don't see a need to fix anything. Why should A benefit because they have a lousy player who can not inbound the ball so his own player is 1st to touch or posess the ball?

The rule isn't broken so no need to fix.

It is broken. A kick is not a legal touch. If it was we wouldn't have a violation for intentionally kicking the ball. Kicking is a violation. Again, throw in team can not lose the arrow unless they violate. The set of rules governing this situation are contradictory.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

We already discussed the heck out of this sitch. Some one find the link...

Throw-in ends

See posts 4 through 8-ish.

[Adam]

A is not entitled to a successful throwin from the arrow, only the opportunity. I think the rule should be amended to change the arrow once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. As it is, the offense is not penalized. They already got the ball due to the arrow, are you suggesting that the defense should be penalized more for kicking the ball during an AP throwin than they are during a normal throwin?

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A is not entitled to a successful throwin from the arrow, only the opportunity. I think the rule should be amended to change the arrow once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower. As it is, the offense is not penalized. They already got the ball due to the arrow, are you suggesting that the defense should be penalized more for kicking the ball during an AP throwin than they are during a normal throwin?

No, the defense is penalized for committing a kicked ball violation as would be in the NCAA. Team A now gets a throw in for the kicking violation. I just am seeking comsistency between the 2 sets of rules. Team A can not lose the arrow unless they violate. Why should they lose the arrow if team B violates (kicks the ball).

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

No, the defense is penalized for committing a kicked ball violation as would be in the NCAA. Team A now gets a throw in for the kicking violation. I just am seeking comsistency between the 2 sets of rules. Team A can not lose the arrow unless they violate. Why should they lose the arrow if team B violates (kicks the ball).

It depends on your definition of completing a throw-in. I agree with you d1ref2b (I like that moniker, btw). but others feel that when B touches the ball whether legally or illegally, the throw-in is completed and the arrow given up. whether it is a kick or a hand touch is irrelevant in these people's eyes. That's not my opinion, btw, I'm just expressing what I"ve heard before.

And in their argurement you should also note that if B touches it with their hand, and swats it oob, they've violated by causing the ball to go out of bounds. So in that case, A loses the arrow on a B violation by your and my thinking. But that other thought process figures that the throw-in was complete when the ball was touched either legally or illegally, so A gives up the arrow.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

Applied as revised:

Team A is awarded a throw in as a result of an AP situation. The throw in is made by Team A, but is intentionally kicked by Team B. Because the ball was not “legally” touched by a player that was inbounds or out of bounds, the AP throw in did not end. Team A would then be awarded a throw in as a result of the kicking violation by Team B, and would not lose the arrow since they did not commit a violation, as references in Rule 6-4, art 5. The AP arrow will stay pointed towards Team A’s basket, giving Team A the opportunity to make the next AP throw in.

I partially agree with your amendment. Because currently, if following the kick ball, the next attempted throw-in resulted a held ball due to the A1 placing the ball through the plane and B1 tying him up, yes Team B would have the resulting AP throw-in.

But I think your revision should read:

...Team A would then be awarded a throw in as a result of the kicking violation by Team B, and would not lose the arrow since they did not commit a violation, as references in Rule 6-4, art 5. The resulting throw-in would still be considered an AP throw-in and the arrow will change when this throw-in ends.

[d1ref2b]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I partially agree with your amendment. Because currently, if following the kick ball, the next attempted throw-in resulted a held ball due to the A1 placing the ball through the plane and B1 tying him up, yes Team B would have the resulting AP throw-in.

But I think your revision should read:

...Team A would then be awarded a throw in as a result of the kicking violation by Team B, and would not lose the arrow since they did not commit a violation, as references in Rule 6-4, art 5. The resulting throw-in would still be considered an AP throw-in and the arrow will change when this throw-in ends.

You penalize Team A. They lose the arrow because Team B kicked the ball. All that needs to be revised is "legally" touched ends a throw in.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

You penalize Team A. They lose the arrow because Team B kicked the ball. All that needs to be revised is "legally" touched ends a throw in.

The offense might lose the arrow but they don't lose the throw-in. They would have lost the arrow on the subsequent substitute throw-in for the defensive violation anyway. They are not disadvantaged in any way iow. They are simply repeating their original AP throw-in after the kicking violation. They never lose this throw-in.

Your logic is faulty from the git-go. What you are suggesting actually penalizes the defensive team twice for one violation.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by d1ref2b

Came a cross an interesting sitution during a rules discussion with a fellow HS official. I was applying NCAA rules and he pointed out that NFHS is different in this case. The question is, When and how is the offensive team penalized when the defensive team commits a violation?

You are loosing your audience.

[mick]

What just happened ?

[Adam]

My opinion, the purpose of the arrow is to give A the throwin; not the possession. Once the throwin starts, the arrow has served its purpose. If B1kicks the ball during a normal throwin, A just gets the ball. If B1 kicks the ball during an AP throwin, you're suggesting they lose the next arrow and the ball.