10 seconds

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a coach ever pulled a rule book on me re: any kinda crap like that, he'd be reading it with his dashboard lights in the parking lot.

I agree that this is what would happen here. But, I can see where a system like has been described could be in place, and handled "professionally". In that case, I'd live with it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree that this is what would happen here. But, I can see where a system like has been described could be in place, and handled "professionally". In that case, I'd live with it.

A system like that would probably just be a case of expanding 5-8-4 to include other situations. You would also have to include a whole new procedure into the equation though. Right now, with correctable errors and timing/scoring/AP mistakes, we just go ahead and fix them. The rule book doesn't get pulled because the official is supposed to know when a mistake is made and also how to fix it.

I guess the logical way of doing it might be requiring that each team would have to make a rule and case book available at the table. A case book would be necessary also because of the explicit rulings contained in there to explain some cloudy language. The fun part would be if the onus was placed on the coach to show the official where he was wrong, and if the official wasn't wrong, a TO was charged for each minute or part minute used while trying to look it up.

Can you imagine a system like this being implemented at the middle school level?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

What better way to get coaches to read the rule book?

The "wishful thinking" post of the day.

Why would coaches waste time reading the book when they already know them better than the officials?

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Kelvin, that's just it. Black and white rules references only. Travels are judgment calls, and judgment calls aren't eligible for protest. Coaches aren't going to waste their timeouts when they don't know the rules. When they do know the rules, then the refs won't have to worry about so much griping.

Also, FWIW, there ought to be some recourse when the refs are making calls that have no rules basis; such as "first to touch," or traveling on a throw-in, or giving the HC an indirect for changing the book after the 10 minute mark. I like it as long as judgment calls are exempt, and as long as there is a punishment for losing the protest. If there are no timeouts, either disallow the protest, or give them their timeout (and it's accompanying technical foul).

All travel calls are judgement? How abut kid falling to the floor with ball and ref does not call a travel, Ref screws the rule---

Player takes one step and jump stops, then pivots and travel is not called... Is that judgement? or is that a misapplication of the rules...

Hopefully you can see where I am going with this...

bud lists another of "charge on team and deciding whether to shoot FTs" --- Isnt that judgement if there was team control or not?

The coach could almost stop any play and say it was the misapplication of a black and white rule.

I will stand by my statement that allowing this is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard in basketball

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

All travel calls are judgement? How abut kid falling to the floor with ball and ref does not call a travel, Ref screws the rule---

Did the player have control of the ball?

Player takes one step and jump stops, then pivots and travel is not called... Is that judgement? or is that a misapplication of the rules...

Did he gather the ball before or after he jumped?

There's are still judgment calls, KG.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The "wishful thinking" post of the day.

Why would coaches waste time reading the book when they already know them better than the officials?

Because there's incentive to actually know them. "What's in it for me?" Have them lose a time-out once, and they'll start reading.

[budjones05]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

All travel calls are judgement? How abut kid falling to the floor with ball and ref does not call a travel, Ref screws the rule---

Player takes one step and jump stops, then pivots and travel is not called... Is that judgement? or is that a misapplication of the rules...

Hopefully you can see where I am going with this...

bud lists another of "charge on team and deciding whether to shoot FTs" --- Isnt that judgement if there was team control or not?

The coach could almost stop any play and say it was the misapplication of a black and white rule.

I will stand by my statement that allowing this is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard in basketball

Kelvin, you are looking way into that "what if's" It's rather simple and coaches understand that also. They will not protest a travel or fouls on the basis of "judgement". I will call a protest when a rule that they never heard of, like 10 seconds on the free throw line. Deciding to shot during a team control or player control foul is a protestable offence. Coaches rarely use it because it's one of the they rather just get the game going and spend 10 mins looking up a rule that they can lose a time out.

[amcginthy]

Originally Posted by budjones05

Tonight, I had a boys high school varsity. The team was on the free throw line. I began to start my count to 10. I get to five, no shot. I get to 8, no shot. I get to 10 and still no shot. TWEET!! 10 seconds on the free throw line. The gym goes crazy and the teams head coach wants a explaination. Told him that the thrower has 10 seconds to shoot the ball. He requests a time out to look up the rule. There it was. He shuts up and doesn't say another word the rest of the game. My question, has anybody ever had a 10 second call on the free throw?

While coaching 3 weeks ago, girl from opposing team continued to take a long time at the line - we were calling for the violation, but it did not come - finally, the fourth time at the line, at 10 sec on the dot...tweet... the opposing coach went nuts.... I thought he would get a T for second... I heard the ref say to him while coming down the court - "com'n coach - I gave you guys every opportunity to speed it up, now, you need to calm it down!"... he called her 3 more times that day....

Coach M,
S. Hagerstown Lady Rebels.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by budjones05

Kelvin, you are looking way into that "what if's" It's rather simple and coaches understand that also. They will not protest a travel or fouls on the basis of "judgement". I will call a protest when a rule that they never heard of, like 10 seconds on the free throw line. Deciding to shot during a team control or player control foul is a protestable offence. Coaches rarely use it because it's one of the they rather just get the game going and spend 10 mins looking up a rule that they can lose a time out.

Bud, just to be perfectly clear, does Missouri currently have a state "protest rule" per se in basketball similar to what you are talking about? Iow, something that is completely different than what is in contained in the NFHS rule book?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by budjones05

Tonight, I had a boys high school varsity. The team was on the free throw line. I began to start my count to 10. I get to five, no shot. I get to 8, no shot. I get to 10 and still no shot. TWEET!! 10 seconds on the free throw line. The gym goes crazy and the teams head coach wants a explaination. Told him that the thrower has 10 seconds to shoot the ball. He requests a time out to look up the rule. There it was. He shuts up and doesn't say another word the rest of the game. My question, has anybody ever had a 10 second call on the free throw?

Yes, had it happen this past summer. In the first quarter, kid took me to 12. I couldn't believe it. First time ever and I didn't call it, but I made a note. Next time I got back to him, it was in the 4th quarter and the game on the line. He took me to 12 and I blasted him. My partner didn't like the call. Said I didn't understand the spirit of the rule. I told him that this guy took me to the limit in the 1st half and I just made sure on him afterwards. I'm sorry that the point in time in the game was critical, thems the breaks....

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Old School

Yes, had it happen this past summer. In the first quarter, kid took me to 12. I couldn't believe it. First time ever and I didn't call it, but I made a note. Next time I got back to him, it was in the 4th quarter and the game on the line. He took me to 12 and I blasted him. My partner didn't like the call. Said I didn't understand the spirit of the rule. I told him that this guy took me to the limit in the 1st half and I just made sure on him afterwards. I'm sorry that the point in time in the game was critical, thems the breaks....

A litlle preventative officiating would have gone a long way in this situation, imo.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Yes, had it happen this past summer. In the first quarter, kid took me to 12. I couldn't believe it. First time ever and I didn't call it, but I made a note. Next time I got back to him, it was in the 4th quarter and the game on the line. He took me to 12 and I blasted him. My partner didn't like the call. Said I didn't understand the spirit of the rule. I told him that this guy took me to the limit in the 1st half and I just made sure on him afterwards. I'm sorry that the point in time in the game was critical, thems the breaks....

I had a sister-in-law once who just had to be able to relate. Everything you'd done, she'd done, too; better and twice. She always had to be the center of attention, and could never allow herself to be upstaged or out-experienced.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I had a sister-in-law once who just had to be able to relate. Everything you'd done, she'd done, too; better and twice. She always had to be the center of attention, and could never allow herself to be upstaged or out-experienced.

Dilbert had a character exactly like that for a while.

Not trying to show my intellectual nature. Just saying, is all. I'm more of a "Wally" fan. He's my hero.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I had a sister-in-law once who just had to be able to relate. Everything you'd done, she'd done, too; better and twice. She always had to be the center of attention, and could never allow herself to be upstaged or out-experienced.

I hate that personality trait. I have TWO sisters-in-law and a mother-in-law like that. I'm sure they're worse than your sister-in-law ever was.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I hate that personality trait. I have TWO sisters-in-law and a mother-in-law like that. I'm sure they're worse than your sister-in-law ever was.

Cute.