The 3 versus 2 fallacies, a mini-rant

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by ncump7

I did not realize that many of you are working a single game. It has been standard practice here in NC for many years to work two games each night. As BBR stated earlier, most doubleheaders are GV/BV, or JVG/JVB, 3 whistles, and $75/$65 paychecks. Are there entire states that have single game refs, or just associations that do this? Do you prefer it, or would you prefer a doubleheader?

I ran 3 years HS in FL working boys or girls JV/V doubleheaders with occasional tripleheaders one year (girls V between boys JV & V games) traveling 40-200 miles roundtrip for most games. I'm in my 3rd year calling HS in HI and here it's one game, V or JV, per night, with all schools in town within just a few miles radius from home. I'm getting older...I definitely prefer just one close-to-home game per night! And BTW, all V in both places is 3-man, JV in FL was 3-man, JV in HI is 2-man. Give me 3-man any day even if the pay is lower.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. I do believe that, at first, more fouls and violations are called with 3 officials. This is because more illegal activity is observed, especially off-ball. The teams will soon realize that this stuff is getting seen and knock it off. Then the number of calls will drop and the game will be an even cleaner one than with only 2 officials.

Also keep in mind that in two person, you are bound to call fouls that aren't really fouls, just because we didn't get as good a look as we would in 3 person, so this will offset some of the hidden fouls that 3rd official sees too.

[wfd21]

Here we do a single varsity game on any given night. Most are two man with a few three man here and there. Most freshman and JV games are double headers. They went away from varsity double headers several years ago. All tourney games are three man.

[Adam]

I think a lot of it depends on the pay scale. In Iowa, you didn't make as much for the 2nd game as you did for the first if you did a double header. In subvarsity, for example, it was $35 for one game and $55 for two. I don't know what the pay was there for varsity, because it varied by school, and the only varsity games I did were double headers.
Here in Colorado, each game has its own pay. Therefore, schools that are close to the city I live it generally get a fresh set of refs for each game. Also, while most varsity games are three man, there are some schools we serve that for whatever reason get two officials. Colorado has set a minimum pay for officials, and it's different for 2 vs. 3 whistle. Varsity pays $44 for 3, and $52 for 2. In the JV game I did 3 man, they just wrote 3 checks totaling the standard pay for a 2 person game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by luvernebbref

Is this what you are getting for one varsity game? Does that mean that you get $99 for a GV/BV night?

Yes and yes.

Originally Posted by luvernebbref

What about a V/JV night?

We get $42.50 for JV and $41 for Frosh, but those games are done with only 2 officials. So a JV/V double-header would be $91.50.

Originally Posted by luvernebbref

I am interested in hearing what officials are getting paid for two or three man crews.

I've basically given you the pay scale in my state, but if really want more detail from other areas, then start a thread about game fees. It has been done in the past on this forum.

[luvernebbref]

I've basically given you the pay scale in my state, but if really want more detail from other areas, then start a thread about game fees. It has been done in the past on this forum.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I will start a new thread, so if others will reply on the thread "Game Fees" I would appreciate it.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Selling the 3 man is a tough job, but really, something that the OFFICIALS need to take the lead in doing. We worked 3 man games for 2 man money for a couple of years while we got the hang of it. This year, when we presented the new contract reflecting appropriate rates for 3 officials, it was sticker shock for the schools. Their first response was, "We can't afford 3 man -- we'll take the 2 man price and have 2 officials for our games." Our association stood up and said that wasn't an option. There was a little negotiating that occurred, but we came out way ahead of what we were getting last year.

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Selling the 3 man is a tough job, but really, something that the OFFICIALS need to take the lead in doing. We worked 3 man games for 2 man money for a couple of years while we got the hang of it. This year, when we presented the new contract reflecting appropriate rates for 3 officials, it was sticker shock for the schools. Their first response was, "We can't afford 3 man -- we'll take the 2 man price and have 2 officials for our games." Our association stood up and said that wasn't an option. There was a little negotiating that occurred, but we came out way ahead of what we were getting last year.

Great idea--use that association power and go on strike! They think WE suck, wait until they see the scabs!

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by imaref

unless you get school districts to cut three checks dividing the 2-person total three ways to issue three checks....two of the three officials gets screwed having to report full rate for each game even though they split the total amount three ways!

Not entirely true. While the officials to whom the checks are issued will most likely receive a 1099 from the school district, proper documentation will allow these same officials to deduct the amount paid to the third guy.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by imaref

Hey....I'm gonna pick up the Rich Fronheiser "rant" on a different thread if anyone wants to contribute.....but, before that.....

"What's the response on the fact that if a "3-Crew" is working "3 for 2" fee structure....and as independent contractors in Wisconsin....unless you get school districts to cut three checks dividing the 2-person total three ways to issue three checks....two of the three officials gets screwed having to report full rate for each game even though they split the total amount three ways!

Also.....I am aware of an assignor who places emphasis on his three-crew assignments placing some priority to "officials who attend his camp." How many leagues/commissioners use "Pay-to-Play" philosophy/criteria to assign their officials? Is this right at the high school level?

end of rant 2.

That's part of the problem here -- we don't have centrally assigned games through an officials' association and many, many officials would be happy to work 2 for a few extra bucks. Many of the old-timers don't want to be bothered learning the system, too.

And don't get me started on assignors and pay-for-play at the high school level. I'd have to create another identity to rant and rave about that nonsense. I work 3 sports year-round and I'm not giving up a weekend of good baseball to work a camp to get 4-5 high school games 2 years from now.

And imaref, reporting is easy -- work all your games in the same 3-person crew and just have a different official work for free each game. My regular crew has already done 6 3-person games together and I've not gotten paid, in essence, twice.

Actually, it's not a big deal, really, since we don't get 1099s or W-2s -- just claim how much you actually worked for and if you have to pay someone out of your check, deduct it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Not entirely true. While the officials to whom the checks are issued will most likely receive a 1099 from the school district, proper documentation will allow these same officials to deduct the amount paid to the third guy.

1099s should only come after $600 in earnings. I've only received a few since moving here 5 years ago -- all from the University system cause I work their college conference in baseball and hit the $600 threshold with them. None from high schools since I don't letter at any one particular school.

[MadCityRef]

Hey B--
Schools find officials for their underclass games. Each official wanting to work must contact each school. The school calls when they have something open. One conference uses AssignByWeb. I asked one AD how much time is spent searching for refs: "Too much."
An underclass assignor as part of an agreement to go to three-man for varsity might be possible. Officials would have to unite and demand change, but I don't see that happening even though schools need us more than we need the work.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

1099s should only come after $600 in earnings. I've only received a few since moving here 5 years ago -- all from the University system cause I work their college conference in baseball and hit the $600 threshold with them. None from high schools since I don't letter at any one particular school.

I realize the $600 thing. I'm just pointing out that someone who receives a full game fee and pays part of it to another official isn't required to pay the taxes on the part they paid someone else.

[ajjl22]

Rich-

I don't think three man is mandated in Illinois during the regular season, but is commonplace in northern illinois. I coach at Alden-Hebron HS and we only use 2 for Varsity games (we are working to get the AD to pay for a third). I believe that not having three officials consistently because when we get to regionals the game is called differently then our players are used to.

[jalons]

Rich-

Keep your head up. If even Iowa has made the move to 3 person for the post-season, there is still hope for Wisconsin. Iowa still played 6-on-6 girls' basketball until the mid-90s!

Btw, we get anywhere from $60-85 each for a V-DH or JV/V game with 3 officials. Three officials aren't mandatory during the regular season, but are encouraged. Most of the schools are open to the extra official and very few make us split 2 checks 3 ways. In the past, my crew has done that several times, but we knew the experience would be worth it when the Association and Union (yes, we have a boys' association and a girls' union) made the switch. Some schools are paying $80/per official with $25 mileage! I found one school paying $45/per for a V-DH and $30 in mileage. We won't be heading back there anytime soon.