Fans on sideline is touched with ball

[Jurassic Referee]

The ball is OOB as per rule 7-1-2(b). It sounds like the the fan interfered with play. If so, give team A the ball back for a throw-in. Use case book play 7.1.2SitB(a) as a guideline. Almost the same situation.

[Mark Padgett]

Don't forget to toss the fan.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The ball is OOB as per rule 7-1-2(b). It sounds like the the fan interfered with play. If so, give team A the ball back for a throw-in. Use case book play 7.1.2SitB(a) as a guideline. Almost the same situation.

This was a hypothetical situation, not a real one. I'm surprised you assumed the fan deliberately interfered with no evidence other than walking half on and off court. I've been in gyms where it's almost impossible to get back to your seat without walking along the sideline.

7-1-2(b) just says the ball is OOB, presumably off of A1 who was dribbling. A1 should watch where he/she is dribbling.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This was a hypothetical situation, not a real one. I'm surprised you assumed the fan deliberately interfered with no evidence other than walking half on and off court. I've been in gyms where it's almost impossible to get back to your seat without walking along the sideline.

7-1-2(b) just says the ball is OOB, presumably off of A1 who was dribbling. A1 should watch where he/she is dribbling.

Are you saying that you would give team B the ball?

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you saying that you would give team B the ball?

I'm going to have to review the case book citation you mentioned. But that was my interpretation of the rule. A1 caused the ball to go out of bounds. Sort of like Jeffrey Meyers. Home run or fan interference?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The ball is OOB as per rule 7-1-2(b). It sounds like the the fan interfered with play. If so, give team A the ball back for a throw-in. Use case book play 7.1.2SitB(a) as a guideline. Almost the same situation.

7-1-2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:
a. A player who is out of bounds.
b. Any other person, the floor, or any object on or outside a boundary.

I agree with JR. Whether the fan interference is deliberate or not doesn't matter. The fact that the fan is partially in the court does. The fan shouldn't be there, but sometimes circumstances dictate otherwise. Therefore, instead of a strict enforcement of 7-1-2, which was not intended to cover this situation, use 2-3 to stop play and give Team A a throw-in.

Now if the fan were completely OOB, then I would simply follow 7-1-2.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The ball is OOB as per rule 7-1-2(b). It sounds like the the fan interfered with play. If so, give team A the ball back for a throw-in. Use case book play 7.1.2SitB(a) as a guideline. Almost the same situation.

This case is talking about hitting a player in the game (B1). A fan is not a player. The ball is out of bounds, and A1 caused it to be out of bounds. Who gets the ball?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This case is talking about hitting a player in the game (B1). A fan is not a player. The ball is out of bounds, and A1 caused it to be out of bounds. Who gets the ball?

How did A1 cause the ball to OOB if he was dribbling it in-bounds? The fan caused the ball to go OOB by interfering with the play. Whether that interference was deliberate or not has no bearing on the play either.

There is no wayinhell you can logically charge A1 with a violation under R9-3-1. Again, the fan caused the ball to go OOB, not A1.

If the fan came 4 feet onto the floor and knocked the ball OOB, would you call a violation on A1 too?

Just give the ball back to team A.

Lah me......

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the fan came 4 feet onto the floor and knocked the ball OOB, would you call a violation on A1 too?

Lah me......

Great example.

Of course, some fool is going to tell you not to charge the team associated with this supporter with a technical foul.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How did A1 cause the ball to OOB if he was dribbling it in-bounds? The fan caused the ball to go OOB by interfering with the play. Whether that interference was deliberate or not has no bearing on the play either.

There is no wayinhell you can logically charge A1 with a violation under R9-3-1. Again, the fan caused the ball to go OOB, not A1.

If the fan came 4 feet onto the floor and knocked the ball OOB, would you call a violation on A1 too?

Just give the ball back to team A.

Lah me......

If you want to make things up, then fine. The rules you cited say otherwise and the case you cited has nothing to do with the play. BTW the fan who is straddling the line is technically OOB, not inbounds. So by hitting the fan, he is dribbling it OOB. I also can't follow why you are saying that the fan hit the ball when the OP says the ball hit the fan.

Unless you've got a better rule citation than the ones you've given, then you have to give the ball to B.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Unless you've got a better rule citation than the ones you've given, then you have to give the ball to B.

Jim, I'd cut my own nuts off before I'd give the ball to team B in this situation.

The ball would not have gone OOB except for the fan interference. You don't penalize a team for fan interference either. Well..... I thought that you don't. Apparently, I was wrong. There's at least one official that would.

Unbelievable.......

[BillyMac]

KYcat1: great post. Generated a lot of good discussion.

For the good of the cause, I would like to make a slight change in KYcat1's original play. I bring this up because this new play is based on one of those "unannounced" changes made by the NFHS a few years ago, and there are probably a small percentage of Forum members who may not be aware of the change.

A-1 is dribbling up the sideline and he or she, not the ball, touches a player, coach, official or fan, who is out of bounds. The call: No violation.

A few years ago the NFHS rule stated that a dribbler could touch a player who was out of bounds and not violate the out of bounds rule. Within the past few years the NFHS has changed the rule, I believe "unannounced", so that a player may now touch a person, any person, not just a player, without violating. By "unannounced", I mean that the change was made without being included in the annual rule changes, editorial changes, and points of emphasis.

Forum members: When did this change occur?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

KYcat1: great post. Generated a lot of good discussion.

For the good of the cause, I would like to make a slight change in KYcat1's original play. I bring this up because this new play is based on one of those "unannounced" changes made by the NFHS a few years ago, and there are probably a small percentage of Forum members who may not be aware of the change.

A-1 is dribbling up the sideline and he or she, not the ball, touches a player, coach, official or fan, who is out of bounds. The call: No violation.

A few years ago the NFHS rule stated that a dribbler could touch a player who was out of bounds and not violate the out of bounds rule. Within the past few years the NFHS has changed the rule, I believe "unannounced", so that a player may now touch a person, any person, not just a player, without violating. By "unannounced", I mean that the change was made without being included in the annual rule changes, editorial changes, and points of emphasis.

Forum members: When did this change occur?

Case Book play 7.1.1 was changed in the 2004-05 season. The change was unannounced. The key is that the touching must be "inadvertent" and it must occur "without [the player] gaining an advantage."


Here is the current version:
7.1.1 SITUATION A: A1, while holding the ball inbounds near the sideline, touches (a) player B1; (b) a photographer; (c) a coach; (d) an official, all of whom are out of bounds. RULING: A1 is not out of bounds in (a), (b), (c) or (d). To be out of bounds, A1 must touch the floor or some object on or outside a boundary line. People are not considered to be objects and play continues. Inadvertently touching someone who is out of bounds, without gaining an advantage, is not considered a violation.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jim, I'd cut my own nuts off before I'd give the ball to team B in this situation.

The ball would not have gone OOB except for the fan interference. You don't penalize a team for fan interference either. Well..... I thought that you don't. Apparently, I was wrong. There's at least one official that would.

Unbelievable.......

What if the ball strikes an official straddling the OOB line?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

What if the ball strikes an official straddling the OOB line?

An official being touched by a ball is not fan interference.

Fan interference is fan interference.

Call anything that you want to. I disagree completely with you and always will.