The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 12:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,910
Errant pass from A1 to A2 bounds towards sideline directly towards coach of team B who is legally standing and coaching his players. A2 has a play to save the ball, but Coach B instinctively grabs the ball as it is coming towards him.

1) In your judgment, Coach B actually touched the ball while it was still over the playing court.

2) In your judgment, Coach B touched the ball while it was over the out-of-bounds area.

What do you have?

Thanks,

Z
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 12:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,104
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Errant pass from A1 to A2 bounds towards sideline directly towards coach of team B who is legally standing and coaching his players. A2 has a play to save the ball, but Coach B instinctively grabs the ball as it is coming towards him.

1) In your judgment, Coach B actually touched the ball while it was still over the playing court.

2) In your judgment, Coach B touched the ball while it was over the out-of-bounds area.
Both cases are an easy T if a player from Team A has a chance to play the ball.

Sitch 1 is a T, regardless. Just my 2 cents
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 12:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Errant pass from A1 to A2 bounds towards sideline directly towards coach of team B who is legally standing and coaching his players. A2 has a play to save the ball, but Coach B instinctively grabs the ball as it is coming towards him.

1) In your judgment, Coach B actually touched the ball while it was still over the playing court.

2) In your judgment, Coach B touched the ball while it was over the out-of-bounds area.

What do you have?

Thanks,

Z
Sitch 1 --Technical Foul.

Sitch 2 -- No clue.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 12:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Errant pass from A1 to A2 bounds towards sideline directly towards coach of team B who is legally standing and coaching his players. A2 has a play to save the ball, but Coach B instinctively grabs the ball as it is coming towards him.

1) In your judgment, Coach B actually touched the ball while it was still over the playing court.

2) In your judgment, Coach B touched the ball while it was over the out-of-bounds area.
Both cases are an easy T if a player from Team A has a chance to play the ball.

Sitch 1 is a T, regardless. Just my 2 cents
AAAAUUUGGGGHHHH!!! 20 seconds!! And you're not even on IM. Absolutely.....
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 12:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,474
I would have to be very confident that Team A was going to make a play before I would "see" the coach interfering with an errant pass and call anything besides OOB off Team A.

A techinical is a pretty severe penalty if the coach is legally standing there coaching when Team A throws the ball at him and he instictively protects himself...

I'm thinking tough luck, bad pass A1, you loose, B's ball.

Where in the rules is the justification for a Technical Foul? even if the ball was over the playing court. It obviously isn't right that bench personnel can interfere with play on the court but where in the rules? 10-4-1?
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 01:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Fruit Heights, UT
Posts: 141
# 1 he gets a T for touching the ball inbounds. I know he's going to yell but so will the other coach if you don't. Also he should know better than to touch a live ball.

# 2 out of bounds on A1, B's ball. Then tell the other coach as he's screaming at me about it. Teach your kids to make better passes coach.

Just my two cents
__________________
"Do I smell the revolting stench of self-esteem?" Mr. Marks (John Lovitz, in The Producers)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 02:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 294
Send a message via ICQ to BigDave
I've always been taught that a "T" is used to make the game better. In this sitch, I don't see the justification for Ting the coach unless it was a blatant attempt to interfere with the pass.
__________________
my favorite food is a whistle
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 02:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDave
I've always been taught that a "T" is used to make the game better. In this sitch, I don't see the justification for Ting the coach unless it was a blatant attempt to interfere with the pass.
If an A team player has the chance to play the ball, then that player is right there in the picture. Coach B has no excuse to touch the ball, no matter whether it's over the court or not. If the ball is over the playing court, this can't be just a reaction -- the coach has got to know he's interfering. If it's over the OOB area, and the coach sort of puts up his hands and the ball falls into the hands, well, that's one thing. But if there's a player that has a chance to get the ball, or if the coach reaches out to touch it, it's interference, isn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 03:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,634
The official has to judge the actions of the coach in both cases.

The pertinent rules are 10-4-1, 4-19-13, and 7-1-2b.

The first says that bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul. The second defines an unsporting foul as consisting of unfair, unethical or dishonorable conduct.

I believe that this is the proper justification for a technical foul against the coach, if the official feels that he purposely interfered with play to disadvantage the opponents.

The last rule cited simply tells us that the ball becomes dead when it touches any person other than a player who is on or outside the boundary line.

I was doing some thinking about this rule after another thread on this board and noticed that there is very little in the rules book about outside interference! I can only find 2-8-1 Note: "The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized."
As well as the related comments in the casebook.

Of course, a problem arises if the outside interference does not warrant a technical foul.
For example, if fans are seated very close to a boundary line, as they are in some of the smaller HS gyms, and a play occurs where a player has a very good opportunity of saving a ball from going OOB and a fan simply reaches up and catches or blocks it to protect himself. It doesn't really matter what side of the boundary plane the ball was on; the official has a tough decision to make: Follow 7-1-2b to the letter and call the OOB violation, or maybe use 2-3 and decide what to do about the fan interference.

What do you think?
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 19, 2003, 09:50am
Huck Finn
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,347
Quote:
Originally posted by garote
[B# 2 out of bounds on A1, B's ball. Then tell the other coach as he's screaming at me about it. Teach your kids to make better passes coach.

Just my two cents [/B]
Although I agree with you, this statement to a coach could get you in trouble.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 19, 2003, 12:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 93
Send a message via Yahoo to zebracz
Talking Coach interference

Bottom line? ----> I think you really have to sell it! Regardless of what you call; however, If in sit. 1, the coach "intentionally" grabbed the ball T him, and tell him, "shame on him!" Or as was mentioned, in judgment if A1 cannot get the ball ignore it and take the heat from A coach.

If it's a tight game in the clutch, you'd better be smoothh about it, too. Tuff, job, eh? lol

goodluck...nice one, though.
__________________
"Have you ever heard of the 5-pt play--a multiple foul on a 3-pt try that goes?" LoL
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 19, 2003, 01:31pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Errant pass from A1 to A2 bounds towards sideline directly towards coach of team B who is legally standing and coaching his players. A2 has a play to save the ball, but Coach B instinctively grabs the ball as it is coming towards him.

1) In your judgment, Coach B actually touched the ball while it was still over the playing court.

2) In your judgment, Coach B touched the ball while it was over the out-of-bounds area.
Both cases are an easy T if a player from Team A has a chance to play the ball.

Sitch 1 is a T, regardless. Just my 2 cents
Chuck,
I can agree with throw-in to A in situation 1, but not a "T" unless the ball was intentionally grabbed in an unsporting act.

In situation B, even with A having a chance to save, if we replace legally placed Coach B with Fan A, Fan B or Fan E, I can see ball to B.
What way could we possibly rationalize a difference between a bench participant and a fan, all legally located? In baseball, we can penalize a base coach for not moving, but I see no corresponding rule in hoops.

mick
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 19, 2003, 02:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,104
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Hmmmm. Maybe I'm having a flashback to my USBL games. . .

I just looked through Rule 10 and the only reference to interference is after a made basket.

If the ball hits a legally located coach, so that s/he can't get out of the way, then fine; it's like the ball went into the stands. But if the coach "grabs" the ball, especially if it's still over the playing court, s/he has taken away a chance for a player to make a play on the ball. That doesn't seem like a mere OOB situation to me.

Ok, I am no longer happy with my initial answer. But I'm hoping somebody will give some rationale to show that it was right, anyway (other than the NBA case book).
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 19, 2003, 03:00pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref

Of course, a problem arises if the outside interference does not warrant a technical foul.
For example, if fans are seated very close to a boundary line, as they are in some of the smaller HS gyms, and a play occurs where a player has a very good opportunity of saving a ball from going OOB and a fan simply reaches up and catches or blocks it to protect himself. It doesn't really matter what side of the boundary plane the ball was on; the official has a tough decision to make: Follow 7-1-2b to the letter and call the OOB violation, or maybe use 2-3 and decide what to do about the fan interference.

What do you think?
Nevadaref,

A player twisting an falling to avoid a 2-year-old on the court....
A player traveling after being bumped by a fan close to the line....
A player's pass being affected by a teenager strolling by and looking into the stands....

I can easily go with POI with inadvertent interference.

mick



Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 19, 2003, 06:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,217
Thumbs down Hate when this happens

Had almost this exact play happen. I was standing in my legally appointed box and the ball flew into me. I didn't catch it but it hit me square. No time to avoid, and really no reason - I didn't prevent the closest player from making a play, even though she was pursuing the ball.

The opposing bench screamed, the ref got that cartoonish wide-eyed oh "shoot" expression on his face, then opted to call if off the "black" coach, white ball (this is a color of uniform description, not a racail commentary by the ref ). I tried to explain that I was not a player and the ball can only be oob off a player, and he told me that I had to avoid the ball - if I got hit, it was off me. Must be one of the new rule changes I didn't read yet.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1