traveling question

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

JRutlege JRutledge

one and two count is reffered to in the NBA rulebook.

I am not aware of the NBA rulebook and what it says. I cannot comment on what the NBA rules are. I only work NF and NCAA rules sets.

Originally Posted by pitchfork

Last time I looked(it's been a few years) the NCAA rulebook had a section on the jump stop. Ending the dribble before taking off on one foot and landing on two feet, no pivot foot allowed. And a jump stop ending the dribble in the air(or after jumping..I cant't remember the exact wording) and landing on two feet, either foot can be used as a pivot foot. We used to work on picking up the dribble after jumping off one foot so we could use either foot as our pivot foot after landing on two feet. This is very easy to do if taught properly even with kids as young as 11-12.

Just so you know the NCAA and NF rulebooks use basically the same exact language for the traveling definition.

Originally Posted by pitchfork

Do you agree that after establishing a pivot foot you may step with the other foot, lift your pivot foot and shoot before the pivot foot touches the ground again?

It is not about whether I agree or not, what does the rules state? Traveling in the NF and NCAA rulebook is all about the pivot foot and when it is established. If a pivot foot is established, you can move any non-pivot foot in any way and lift the pivot foot as long as you are not starting a dribble.

Peace

[pitchfork]

snaqwells

The refs here in california have told me they dont have a problem landing on two feet and establishing a pivot foot, they have a problem lifting the pivot foot while the other foot is on the ground while attempting a shot. I have been told by high school refs you can pivot but must jump off both feet at the same time. I disagree but I no longer have my players attempt to use this move as there is much confusion .

[Jurassic Referee]

Pitchfork, which one of the are you talking about?
1) If you end the dribble in the air and land with both feet simultaneously, then either foot can be the pivot foot.
2)If you land on one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot foot.
3) If you land on one foot and jump off that foot to land simultaneously on both feet, neither foot can be the pivot foot.

From your original description, it sounded as if you were describing #1. If so, the subsequent move is legal. If not, let us know whether you're talking about #2 or #3.

Same rules in high school and college for at least the last 50 years btw. Nothing has changed iow. Never try to apply NBA rules to games not using those rules.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

snaqwells

The refs here in california have told me they dont have a problem landing on two feet and establishing a pivot foot, they have a problem lifting the pivot foot while the other foot is on the ground while attempting a shot. I have been told by high school refs you can pivot but must jump off both feet at the same time.

That makes no sense at all. It's always legal to lift the pivot foot before a shot or a pass. (It's travelling to replace teh pivot foot on the floor or to lift it before starting a dribble) It's never required to jump off of both feet at once. The officials are wrong.

[Adam]

If the officials are telling you it's traveling to lift the pivot foot and jump off the other foot, then they're wrong. The problem is, there's not much you can do about it but teach your kids to do something different. What level are you talking about here?

Finally, what's the deal with all the ex-Hawkeyes on this board?

[just another ref]

Though not in the books, it pays to speak the language of the layman. When I speak of counts, it refers to the sound(s) one hears when one foot or two feet simultaneously hit the floor. When people start to question me about what is legal and what is not, many discussions have ended when I tell them there is no legal play that involves a three count after the ball is caught.

[pitchfork]

Jurassic Referee
I'm talking about senerio #1, end dribble in the air that is clearly in the rule book . No offense JRutledge but I believe Jurassic has it crrect you can end the dribble in the air. Is that a direct quote from the rule book, Jurassic?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

Jurassic Referee
I'm talking about senerio #1, end dribble in the air that is clearly in the rule book . No offense JRutledge but I believe Jurassic has it crrect you can end the dribble in the air. Is that a direct quote from the rule book, Jurassic?

NFHS rule 4-44-2a(1):
"A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a(1)-if both feet are off the floor and the player lands simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot".

NFHS rule 4-44-3a:
"After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal".

Those are the applicable rules, pitchfork verbatim. NCAA rules are the same. Iow, the play as described by you is legal.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Though not in the books, it pays to speak the language of the layman. When I speak of counts, it refers to the sound(s) one hears when one foot or two feet simultaneously hit the floor. When people start to question me about what is legal and what is not, many discussions have ended when I tell them there is no legal play that involves a three count after the ball is caught.

It might be good to speak in layman terms, but when talking about counts has nothing to do with what the rules says. If I land on one foot and that is your pivot feet, then you can step (or count) as many times with the other foot. It is misleading when using the term counts and many times people say things like "one and a half counts" that is traveling. The problem is I do not know how you "half step." This is why I always bring a conversation back to what the rulebook says when taking to coaches and players. I tell them which one was the pivot foot and what they did or did not do with it.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It might be good to speak in layman terms, but when talking about counts has nothing to do with what the rules says. If I land on one foot and that is your pivot feet, then you can step (or count) as many times with the other foot.

The laymen and I all seem to agree that the "count" refers to different foot or feet landing in sequence. The "moves" in question are all made while "moving." When you stop and pat the same foot over and over, it is no longer a "count." Up to now, this explanation has been very well received, and apparently, reasonably well understood, which is more than I can say for "Over the back is not a foul."