Over-rule your partner?

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Does anyone else realize the contradiction, not in this thread, but on the board about plays like this? If a poster is the lead and sees something, it is OK to go ask your partner a question. If someone is a trail and the lead makes a wrong call then we talk to the lead to try and talk him/her out of the call.

This is exactly why I posted this.

What I did: I immediately went up to him, told him the girl's foot never left the backcourt. He said OK, yelled out "inadvertant whistle, white ball" and we played on. No problems from the coaches.

I know this guy works a lot of games (youth leagues, men's leagues) solo and I chalked it up to "reflex" on his part. There were other calls during the game that he made in my primary.

[SWMOzebra]

Virtually same call happened to me over the weekend. I was T on a 2-man team with A1 bringing ball up the court. She crosses into FC and gets trapped, throws the ball back to A2 who is still in BC. A2 jumps (both feet off the floor when contact with the ball was made) and lands in FC squarely with ball in hand. The L whistles for a BC violation...we conference and agree to disagree, but he does acknowledge it was not his call and defers to me. I say inadvertent whistle and we play on with A getting the ball.

The nice part here was no argument from either bench...in fact, it may have been the only no argument whistle all night.

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

Virtually same call happened to me over the weekend. I was T on a 2-man team with A1 bringing ball up the court. She crosses into FC and gets trapped, throws the ball back to A2 who is still in BC. A2 jumps (both feet off the floor when contact with the ball was made) and lands in FC squarely with ball in hand. The L whistles for a BC violation...we conference and agree to disagree, but he does acknowledge it was not his call and defers to me. I say inadvertent whistle and we play on with A getting the ball.

The nice part here was no argument from either bench...in fact, it may have been the only no argument whistle all night.

If I'm reading your post correctly, A1 crosses into FC therefore we now have FC possession by Team A. She passes back to A2 who is still in the BC but jumps, catches the ball, and lands in the FC. That is still a BC violation as A2 still had BC status at the time she caught the ball. In which case, the L was correct on this call.

[refnjoe]

Originally Posted by PYReff I'm reading your post correctly, [I

A1 crosses into FC[/I] therefore we now have FC possession by Team A. She passes back to A2 who is still in the BC but jumps, catches the ball, and lands in the FC. [/B] That is still a BC violation as A2 still had BC status at the time she caught the ball. In which case, the L was correct on this call.

Can you tell me the rule/case reference for this, please?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by refnjoe

Can you tell me the rule/case reference for this, please?

Thanks!

NFHS 4-35-3

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by refnjoe

Can you tell me the rule/case reference for this, please?

Thanks!

4-35-3

You are where you are at until you get where you are going.

[JRutledge]

Honestly I do not know what I would do. I would hope that I would change the call or go to my partner, but that is only if the partner has a good understanding of how things work (which is not displayed by this type of call). I do know I would not argue about the call on the court, but I just might have a serious discussion in the locker room at halftime or after the game.

Peace

[lukealex]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

4-35-3

You are where you are at until you get where you are going.

I like "You are where you WERE until you get where you're going"

You are in the air, but you were in the backcourt

[SWMOzebra]

Yep, I totally missed it and we discussed it at halftime. He (10+ yrs. experience) allowed me to stick to my guns on the incorrect call (me, total rookie), thinking it would be a learning experience for me to catch grief from one or both benches. Team B was winning by 22 at this point in the game, so he didn't feel like it would negatively impact the outcome by letting me make a mistake and learn from it.

What surprised him the most was no argument from either coach, but the lesson was not lost on me. I have no doubt in a closely contested game, I would have been flamed.

[Texas Aggie]

It is almost impossible for me to believe that a guy came from the lead to get that!

Not for me.

Saturday morning Freshman boys game years ago. Nobody's yet even awake much, and coaches haven't said one word. I don't recall whether the game was close or not, but I do recall what my co-official said to me before the game: that he had been in that chapter for 7 years and hadn't called a varsity game. He was mad about it.

Sometime in the second half, I'm the new lead covering a fast break. I'm just behind the defender who's a step behind the offensive player. I'm getting in position to judge any contact, but none happens. Halfway through the layup, a whistle blows. I'm thinking, "that's weird; surely a coach didn't say something as it was a clean steal." I look back and my "partner" is right around the free throw line extended on the (now) backcourt and he's signaling a traveling violation. Hint: there was no traveling.

The coach of the team the call went against just looked at me and shook his head. I made a call to the chapter President and Secretary that afternoon. I don't remember what all was discussed, but two things were: no varsity games for this guy, and no more games with me. I don't think he lasted the season. Thank God.

[Adam]

I believe it, too. It's the "get it right" mentality coupled with the judgment of an official without enough experience to actually "get it right." He sees what he thinks is a backcourt call from 45 feet away, doesn't hear his partner whistle it, so he thinks he needs to get it. They generally mean well but don't know any better.

[illinoisbluezeb]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

Virtually same call happened to me over the weekend. I was T on a 2-man team with A1 bringing ball up the court. She crosses into FC and gets trapped, throws the ball back to A2 who is still in BC. A2 jumps (both feet off the floor when contact with the ball was made) and lands in FC squarely with ball in hand. The L whistles for a BC violation...we conference and agree to disagree, but he does acknowledge it was not his call and defers to me. I say inadvertent whistle and we play on with A getting the ball.

The nice part here was no argument from either bench...in fact, it may have been the only no argument whistle all night.

Question: When She crosses into FC, areboth feet and the ball now in FC?

IF no, then no call or IAW is correct.

If yes, then when she throws the ball back to A2 who is still in BC. A2 jumps (both feet off the floor when contact with the ball was made) and lands in FC, this is is a BC violation. A2 did not have FC status until she lands, when she touched the ball she had BC status causing the BC violation.

You are where your are until you get where you are going. Rule-4 Section-35 Article-3

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by illinoisbluezeb

Question: When She crosses into FC, areboth feet and the ball now in FC?

If the dribbler crossed into the frontcourt, she must have had both feet and the ball in the frontcourt, by rule. If she didn't, she wouldn't have crossed into the frontcourt. She'd still be in the backcourt, also by rule. It's that simple.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by illinoisbluezeb

Question: When She crosses into FC, areboth feet and the ball now in FC?

IF no, then no call or IAW is correct.

This is true for a dribbler only. If she's not dribbling; she's got FC status as soon as she's holding the ball with at least one foot in the FC and no part of her touching the BC.

[deecee]

on the part about partners calling out of primary and court coverage snafus after we pre-game who covers what in the gray zone and what happens on contact in the gray zone I still get a lot of guys calling through the lane and fouls that occur after the play has turned away from them and they get straight lined when their partner is the only one with a clear look at any contact.

When I mention any of this I can tell that most of them dont give a rats azz to listen to me because most of the time I am at least 10-15 years their junior. It takes a lot for me to get frustrated and one thing that gets me is erors that happen after we plan on what to do in those exact situation and then after the first screw up and I go over with them "Hey partner please hold your whistle for a second on those calls through the lane -- and unless you have a felony trust me to make that call" what do I get -- more calls through the lane -- and most of the time they are on plays that has the ball handler going away from the basket or towards the endline not the paint.