NBA...at it again!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

here's the thing -- these guys are professionals and I dont expect to hear any whining about "boo hoo -- we are getting our asses kicked and the starters are still in." Suck it up and put a better product out there if you are continually getting your butt handed to you -- period this isnt popwarner basektball.

You put a crap product on the floor and you get flushed well thats the bed you made -- get real comfortable. I think the new james bond should have been officiating this game -- throw diplomacy out the window -- and the knicks (except David lee -- I like the guy and his hustle reminds me of Charles Oakley).

First of all this is not Pop Warner, Little League or JH ball. This is the pros. Like it or not there are codes of respect. I cannot think of a single sport where there are not certain codes that players and coaches live by to some extent at the pro level. Even at the college and HS levels there are certain things you do not do or you will piss off the opponent and sometimes the officials. Ever see a team up by 50 keep on the press? I am not saying actions that are advocated are justified or the right thing to do. But we would all be naive to think that doing certain things to embarrass or to show up an opponent is not apart of the thinking of many that play and participate.

Peace

[deecee]

JR -- I am not saying that its the right thing to do -- but why should one team change their strategy on how they want to play their whole game because their opponent sucks. I mean these guys get paid millions a year, these coaches have the job security of the president of Iraq, and most of them whether winning or losing have the same lack of sportsmanship that might have been present 30 or 40 years ago.

Take the lakers game yesterday versus the wizards -- one of the qizards players had a fairly open fast break that smush parker caught up to and fouled the guy and while he fouled him he held on to him to keep him from falling -- what did the wizards player say "instead of thanks for keeping me up" he got in smush's face and started trash talking. The foul was clean and smush made a good play on the ball but the fact remains that the Knicks should take their lumps and the next time they play the nuggets they might want to try to score more than the nuggets. simple plan -- however they will fail.

[Adam]

We're talking about, what, a 20 point lead? It's not like they were winning by 80. Isaiah's comments strike me as premeditation. I would hope that, even lacking definitive information, Stern had a word with Thomas.
Getting embarrassed is one thing, tackling a shooter from behind is not an appropriate response; I don't care who you are. It's not quite like throwing a hit-and-run sucker punch, but still....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

We're talking about, what, a 20 point lead? It's not like they were winning by 80. Isaiah's comments strike me as premeditation. I would hope that, even lacking definitive information, Stern had a word with Thomas.
Getting embarrassed is one thing, tackling a shooter from behind is not an appropriate response; I don't care who you are. It's not quite like throwing a hit-and-run sucker punch, but still....

You are talking about a 20 point lead with a 1:30 to go in the game. If this was a HS game, I am not sure you would take that same attitude. Also there were some reverse dunking and other show boating that did not go over well.

I never justified anything, I said that there are ways to do things and there are ways not to do things. It is no different than a baseball player taking a slow run around the bases after a homerun or going after a star in a hockey game. There are a lot of codes pros live by and it will start trouble if you violate them. Of course I do not agree with all these codes and the way people get upset about them, but they are still there. And if you want to avoid that perception, then do not violate these codes.

Peace

[Old School]

Mr. Rutledge, I'm sorry but I'm not buying your argument. 20 points is not that big of a lead in the NBA with less than 2 minutes to play. I have seen 2 minutes take up to an hour to play in the NBA. Plus, not too many years ago, Denver was getting beat when they had big leads going into the final minutes. In addition, George Karl does not strike me as the type of man that would run up the score.

There maybe something to the point that George and Larry Brown are old bud's and not liking what the Knicks did to Larry reputation, however, can't prove any of that.

As far as showtime. The NBA is all about showtime, monster dunks, spectacular dunks, etc. Players are getting paid million of dollars and the fans are paying top dollar to see this action. They should come out to compete every night or expect to get whoop pretty good. I still don't think Denver was pouring it on as bad as the Knicks are making it out to be. I think the Laker's was pouring it on when they left Kobie in the game to score 81 points. Now, I can see that type of foul on Kobie that night, damn, too bad Isiah wasn't coaching that team. That's what I call running it up! That's the unwritten code that you speak of.

What we had here, was not a failure to communicate, but some young men overreacting to the situation (btw, foul was a F1, debatable F2) and a coach who took it personally. Isiah is not a good coach to me, imho. Guaranteed, you will see more stuff like this from him this season.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old School

Mr. Rutledge, I'm sorry but I'm not buying your argument. 20 points is not that big of a lead in the NBA with less than 2 minutes to play. I have seen 2 minutes take up to an hour to play in the NBA. Plus, not too many years ago, Denver was getting beat when they had big leads going into the final minutes. In addition, George Karl does not strike me as the type of man that would run up the score.

First of all I do not care if you buy it or not. I was not asking for your approval to my position. I was only stating my opinion that was pretty much it.

Originally Posted by Old School

There maybe something to the point that George and Larry Brown are old bud's and not liking what the Knicks did to Larry reputation, however, can't prove any of that.

I do not even believe I used this as an issue. Only George Karl knows why he kept in two starters at that point of the game. I do know this, when that kind of things happen in a HS or college game we make all kinds of judgments about these types of situations. I know some people made a similar conclusion when the Ohio college team was blown out and allowed 200+ points in a game.

Originally Posted by Old School

As far as showtime. The NBA is all about showtime, monster dunks, spectacular dunks, etc. Players are getting paid million of dollars and the fans are paying top dollar to see this action. They should come out to compete every night or expect to get whoop pretty good. I still don't think Denver was pouring it on as bad as the Knicks are making it out to be. I think the Laker's was pouring it on when they left Kobie in the game to score 81 points. Now, I can see that type of foul on Kobie that night, damn, too bad Isiah wasn't coaching that team. That's what I call running it up! That's the unwritten code that you speak of.

This is all nice, but when you do things that may be perceived of "showing up" your opponent, you will get a very negative reaction to these kind of situations. This obviously is what might have sparked the flagrant foul end of this incident.

Originally Posted by Old School

What we had here, was not a failure to communicate, but some young men overreacting to the situation (btw, foul was a F1, debatable F2) and a coach who took it personally. Isiah is not a good coach to me, imho. Guaranteed, you will see more stuff like this from him this season.

See what from him? See him tell his players to play hard? Even you are admitting that you feel it was not a flagrent 2 foul, so what did he do? I disagree that this was not a Flagrant 2 foul, but that is why you and I were watching the game and not on the floor.

Peace

[OHBBREF]

A week ago we were talking about a team that was taking a 230 to 78 aZZ woopin and nobody was fouling anyone flagrantly or for that matter realy whining about how bad they got beat - and they were playing up a division.
Yes it was college - not the pros- but it really doesn't mater - If you are on the floor your are there to compete if on that day you get beat by 50 or 10 that is the way it goes live with it - to be so poor a sport as to cry or threaten that you will hurt somebody if they run up the score on you- you deserve to get the score run up on you.

Take your whoopin's like a man, not the over paid babies you turn out to be.
let's not even talk about the suit about the technical fouls because they can't demonstrutively complain about calls anymore.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

A week ago we were talking about a team that was taking a 230 to 78 aZZ woopin and nobody was fouling anyone flagrantly or for that matter realy whining about how bad they got beat - and they were playing up a division.
Yes it was college - not the pros- but it really doesn't mater - If you are on the floor your are there to compete if on that day you get beat by 50 or 10 that is the way it goes live with it - to be so poor a sport as to cry or threaten that you will hurt somebody if they run up the score on you- you deserve to get the score run up on you.

This all sounds wonderful, but I have read hear many times about how behavior is perceived as unsportsmanlike when the winning team does things to purposely humiliate the opponent. Whether it is pressing all game long in a big time blowout, to even the way they celebrate a great play. I hope that you are the first person to tell a younger official this when they come here and ask "Can I T up a coach for......." some type of behavior that mirrored the events proceeding the fight in this game. Since the NBA players are role models, do not complain when the very same feelings take place at the local JH game.

Peace

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all I do not care if you buy it or not. I was not asking for your approval to my position. I was only stating my opinion that was pretty much it.

Are we getting a little defensive here? I agree, that is it...

I do not even believe I used this as an issue. Only George Karl knows why he kept in two starters at that point of the game.

Of course you didn't, I did!

This is all nice, but when you do things that may be perceived of "showing up" your opponent, you will get a very negative reaction to these kind of situations.

Agree with this statement, but not in case. Score was not indicative that they where showing off. I think this may be where we disagree the most. The NBA is all about entertainment, and showtime is what the fans come and pay a very hefty, hefty, hefty (up to $600 per seat) price to see. I want to see Carmelo get off, he is a superstar and I want to see him in the game all the way to the end. The same if it was Lebron James or Michael Jordan. The Knicks got no business getting all upset ruining everybody good time because they can't take a little butt whoop-in. Let's face it man. They acted like little kids. Isiah acted like a little spoil child, and that attitude spread around his team and next thing you know, we got an all out brawl. Next thing you know, we got retaliations like this happening all over the country. Isiah is got to be smarter than this. I'm sorry, he's got to be smarter than this! Let's be clear, Isiah started this. If we can't agree here, than we are done talking. Isiah got to keep his personal feeling in check until after the game. He's not a player anymore. I don't want to see him lose his job as a coach but I think more about the message he just sent out around the country. We don't need this sh!t coming from his position. If he's going to act like a sore loser everytime he gets a little beat up, then he doesn't need to be in that position. The Knicks deserve better....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old School

Are we getting a little defensive here? I agree, that is it...

Of course you didn't, I did!

Defensive? Who are you to me? The point is I did not ask you to buy anything. If you do not agree with my position then oh well.

Originally Posted by Old School

Agree with this statement, but not in case. Score was not indicative that they where showing off. I think this may be where we disagree the most. The NBA is all about entertainment, and showtime is what the fans come and pay a very hefty, hefty, hefty (up to $600 per seat) price to see. I want to see Carmelo get off, he is a superstar and I want to see him in the game all the way to the end. The same if it was Lebron James or Michael Jordan. The Knicks got no business getting all upset ruining everybody good time because they can't take a little butt whoop-in. Let's face it man. They acted like little kids.

You are right, it is a business. And in any business if you treat people that you have to work with or deal with in that business and you treat them in what is perceived as unprofessional, you will likely suffer some consequences as a result. Now the NBA most of this is dealt with on the court and in most people's view, but in other aspects of life it happens behind close doors. We talk about it hear all the time when people complain they live in a political association or they did not get a shot based on something they are not aware of. It is not about entertainment when you are a participant of an industry. You will have to face these same people again; you do not want to burn bridges if you do not have to.

Originally Posted by Old School

Isiah acted like a little spoil child, and that attitude spread around his team and next thing you know, we got an all out brawl. Next thing you know, we got retaliations like this happening all over the country. Isiah is got to be smarter than this. I'm sorry, he's got to be smarter than this! Let's be clear, Isiah started this. If we can't agree here, than we are done talking. Isiah got to keep his personal feeling in check until after the game. He's not a player anymore. I don't want to see him lose his job as a coach but I think more about the message he just sent out around the country. We don't need this sh!t coming from his position. If he's going to act like a sore loser everytime he gets a little beat up, then he doesn't need to be in that position. The Knicks deserve better....

I am not sure what Isiah had to do with the fight no more than George Karl did. That fight was based on the reaction of all the parties directly involved. If you do not like Isiah that is your right, but it has nothing to do with the fight that took place. Remember Isiah is a Hall of Fame player talking to a potential Hall of Fame player. I think he is in a much better position to tell a young player what to do despite what team he was on. He has much more of a right to do so than Karl if you ask me.
Also I think as usual we over-react to these situations and make them into bigger issues. If you were really old school you would remember at another time when fighting in the NBA was a regular occurrence. Now it barely happens and the only incident we can talk about was over a year old. I can remember specifically when Dr. J and Larry Bird, two of the biggest stars at the time got into fisticuffs in the 80s. I remember big time fights that took place with some of the biggest stars of the day. I do not know if you even have a chance to listen to Norm Van Lear formally of the Chicago Bulls talk and was in the same backcourt with Jerry Sloan (current coach of the Utah Jazz) and Norm advocates putting someone into a wall almost every other comment when he gives analysis of Bulls and NBA games. I have been listening and watching Van Lear for years as he was on TV most of the Jordan year's runs for championships and he was making comments all the time about being tough and talks about what they would do to players of today's games.

Peace

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Ever see a team up by 50 keep on the press?
Peace

How about that 201-78 NCAA-M game recently?