T the Varsity coach

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Small problem.

If he came out of the stands, and he wasn't on the bench or listed as being one of the JV coaches, then he is a fan. He isn't part of the JV coaching staff per se; he's part of the Varsity coaching staff. Completely different animals. It's usually a last resort to throw "T"s at fans anyway. I'd have have just told him to get back in the stands and stay in the stands. If he gives you any crap, get game management to get him out of of the gym. Stop the game until he is gone. If he is game management, do the same thing. Tell him that unless he leaves, the game will be suspended. Not forfeited, suspended. If that happens, write everything up for the league/state/your assignor.

Why would you suspend the game rather than forfeit it? (Just interested because this happened to me last season.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Why would you suspend the game rather than forfeit it? (Just interested because this happened to me last season.)

The problem was caused by a person that really wasn't a member of either team. If you forfeit the game, you're penalizing a team for something that was beyond their ability to control. The game may(and probably will) be forfeited anyway, but leave that decision up to the proper governing body, be it that particular league or the state. Just write it up and send it in. Btw, you still start the next game, even if the same goober is there as the head coach. But the first time he acts up, buh-bye. And if he refuses to leave, then you can forfeit this time,

Make sense?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Make sense?

Definately.

With luck, I won't need that option ever again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Why would you suspend the game rather than forfeit it? (Just interested because this happened to me last season.)

Care to share, Mark?

[chrs_schuster]

I talked to the head of our association, his explanation is quote "The coach is done for the day plus he/she cannot be on the bench of any game for the next two games. " So thats are rule in Ohio.

[Mark Dexter]

I'm pretty sure that I posted this situation after it happened last season, but I couldn't find it when searching, so here goes.

It's the third quarter of a boys' freshman game (part of a Fr/JV/V triple-header), team's last game of the season and I'm lead under the home team's basket. A2 and B2 are jostling in the lane, but their backs are turned towards me, so I can't see exactly what's going on. B2's hand apparently flew up (I couldn't see it, so I didn't call anything) and hit A2 in the face. A2 then spins around, looks at me and shouted "What the f***?"

I immediately signalled a technical foul and reported it as a flagrant technical foul, so A2 is disqualified (yes, I did decide this during the walk to the table). A's coach is upset (probably half because he didn't think it should be flagrant, half because I didn't immediately signal the DQ) but I explain the situation to him and we shoot the FT's.

After the FTs, A's coach called a timeout, and I met him at halfcourt to explain the situation. I told the coach that his player probably had gotten hit in the face, but that neither my partner nor I was able to see it due to the angles at which we were standing. At this point, a person (who I had assumed to be an assistant coach) came over from the bench area to talk with the head coach and me. (This man had been standing in the locker room door, directly behind me when the contact occurred and when I assessed the T against the player.) I told the man that I would only discuss the situation with the head coach (with whom I had been calmly conversing), and the man said that he was the head coach for the entire program. I told him that the freshman head coach was the head coach for this game and that the freshman head coach was the only person with whom I would discuss the matter.

I ended the discussion, saying that I would not consult my partner about the player ejection. The "overall" coach kept complaining and I told him that I was "not going to hear any more from him." After both coaches returned to the bench area, he shouted across the court "You're not going to ask because you know I'm right." I assessed the coach a flagrant technical foul and ejected him from the game.

A few minutes later, I noticed that the ejected coach was still in the gym - talking to the AD!!! I told the freshman head coach that the ejected coach would have to leave. His response was that the ejected coach was talking to the AD and that I could tell him myself. The next time I was close to the ejected coach's section, I told him that - due to his ejection - he would have to leave the gym. (Probably my biggest mistake of the night, but I didn't want to hold up the game - figured this would cause fewer problems.)

So the coach left the gym (went right outside the doors, but I didn't make an issue of it). A few minutes later, I was standing on the baseline when he walked behind me, claiming that he was the "site manager" for the evening. I considered making him leave or getting the R to forfeit the game, but I decided on just letting it slide and putting it in my game report.

I'm not sure if anything ever came of the ejections. (I e-mailed my assignor, then called and left a voicemail, but never got any response from him saying that he had recieved the report.) Per CT guidelines, the coach should not have coached in the varsity game. I'm not sure whether he did or not.

That was definately my excitement from last season. I'm sure you can see now why I wouldn't want the situation to occur again.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Small problem.

If he came out of the stands, and he wasn't on the bench or listed as being one of the JV coaches, then he is a fan. He isn't part of the JV coaching staff per se; he's part of the Varsity coaching staff. Completely different animals. It's usually a last resort to throw "T"s at fans anyway. I'd have have just told him to get back in the stands and stay in the stands. If he gives you any crap, get game management to get him out of of the gym. Stop the game until he is gone. If he is game management, do the same thing. Tell him that unless he leaves, the game will be suspended. Not forfeited, suspended. If that happens, write everything up for the league/state/your assignor.

IMO, he made himself part of the JV staff when he played the "I'm the Varsity Head Coach card." He was trying to use his "staff" authority to influence the officials. Just my 2 cents.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

IMO, he made himself part of the JV staff when he played the "I'm the Varsity Head Coach card." He was trying to use his "staff" authority to influence the officials. Just my 2 cents.

How can he make himself part of the JV staff by saying he's NOT part of the JV staff? He just told you he was on the Varsity staff, not the JV staff, didn't he?

Sure, he was trying to use his school affiliation to try and intimidate the officials. That school affiliation doesn't make him part of the JV team, though. He still has to be treated as a "fan" rules-wise. He wasn't on the bench, which means that he sureasheck can't logically be defined as being "bench personnel" under rule 4-34-2. And "bench personnel" in that rule specifically includes "coaches".

Btw, if you did make the mistake of "T"ing up the Varsity coach coming out of the stands using your logic, you are aware also that you then have to give the JV head coach an indirect "T" too, I hope. The JV head coach is responsible for all "bench personnel" as per rule 10-4. If that indirect technical foul is the one that then puts the JV coach over his limit and gets him tossed, I wanna be there when you try and justify that ejection also.

Never do what can't be explained logically in a post-game report.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How can he make himself part of the JV staff by saying he's NOT part of the JV staff? He just told you he was on the Varsity staff, not the JV staff, didn't he?

Sure, he was trying to use his school affiliation to try and intimidate the officials. That school affiliation doesn't make him part of the JV team, though. He still has to be treated as a "fan" rules-wise. He wasn't on the bench, which means that he sureasheck can't logically be defined as being "bench personnel" under rule 4-34-2. And "bench personnel" in that rule specifically includes "coaches".

Btw, if you did make the mistake of "T"ing up the Varsity coach coming out of the stands using your logic, you are aware also that you then have to give the JV head coach an indirect "T" too, I hope. The JV head coach is responsible for all "bench personnel" as per rule 10-4. If that indirect technical foul is the one that then puts the JV coach over his limit and gets him tossed, I wanna be there when you try and justify that ejection also.

Never do what can't be explained logically in a post-game report.

Please hear me out, when the V head coach walks to the edge of the court and yells at the official or demands an explaination (which he is not due because he's a fan) and then he rants about how he is due an explaination because he's the V head coach....he is inserting himself as staff. I really don't care where he started out from, I know where he is at and how he is trying to influence the official. He knows good and well that he has not only crossed the line but ran right thru it and he's due whatever he gets.

In my most non-arguementative tone; would you take that action from a fan? What would you have done to that fan who did this action? Then maybe the better thing to do is have this fan/coach removed from the gym for the evening.

To answer your question about if this T was enough to have the JV coach ejected......I think that AD's got a long season ahead of him if the JV coach is so unsportsmanlike to be near ejection and then the V coach is also acting like this. Hmmmmm, my kid would not play for those coaches.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

Please hear me out, when the V head coach walks to the edge of the court and yells at the official or demands an explaination (which he is not due because he's a fan) and then he rants about how he is due an explaination because he's the V head coach....he is inserting himself as staff. I really don't care where he started out from, I know where he is at and how he is trying to influence the official. He knows good and well that he has not only crossed the line but ran right thru it and he's due whatever he gets.

I feel that your suggestion of simply having him removed from the gym is your best option. Report it to your state/assignor, and if they choose to equate it with an ejection, then they can apply the appropriate penalties.

In my case, the only reason I assessed a flagrant T was because the varsity coach was standing at the bench along with the freshman coach. At that point, he was most certainly bench personnel and under the jurisdiction of the freshman coach.

One other reason to be careful of T-ing up anyone who claims to be the varsity coach - what if he's lying? What if it's just a fan of the opposing team trying to get two shots awarded?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

Please hear me out, when the V head coach walks to the edge of the court and yells at the official or demands an explaination (which he is not due because he's a fan) and then he rants about how he is due an explaination because he's the V head coach....he is inserting himself as staff. I really don't care where he started out from, I know where he is at and how he is trying to influence the official. He knows good and well that he has not only crossed the line but ran right thru it and he's due whatever he gets.

In my most non-arguementative tone; would you take that action from a fan? What would you have done to that fan who did this action? Then maybe the better thing to do is have this fan/coach removed from the gym for the evening.

No, I wouldn't take that from as fan. Or from someone stating that he was the Varsity head coach either. If he doesn't back off, then he's going in the parking lot. And if he refuses to go in the parking lot, I'm suspending the JV game.

I've already stated all that above.

What I won't do, because there is absolutely NO rules backing to do so, is penalize that "fan" as being part of the JV coaching staff. He might be "inserting himself as staff", but that doesn't make him a JV coach, and you can't penalize him as such, rules-wise.

Again, never do what can't be explained logically or can't be justified by the rules. And trying to morph a fan coming out of the stands into a bench coach fails both of those tests imo.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Small problem.

If he came out of the stands, and he wasn't on the bench or listed as being one of the JV coaches, then he is a fan. .

Maybe where you are but that's not the interpretation here. As stmaryrams stated, he is part of the basketball staff and is expected to conduct himself according to the rules at all times. If he comes out of the stands on me, one T and he's done. And we will having backing from the local and state associations if that happens.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What I won't do, because there is absolutely NO rules backing to do so, is penalize that "fan" as being part of the JV coaching staff. He might be "inserting himself as staff", but that doesn't make him a JV coach, and you can't penalize him as such, rules-wise.

Again, never do what can't be explained logically or can't be justified by the rules. And trying to morph a fan coming out of the stands into a bench coach fails both of those tests imo.

So you're telling us that a T cannot be assessed to a team for the behavior of a team supporter? I don't think so my geriatric partner.

If he's a coach from that school, I have no problem sticking him in the a$$ and chunking him. And I am backed by rule.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by stmaryrams

I did have a similar sitch with a varsity coach at a jv game. My partner had a call which got the bench in an uproar. He called a violation for crossing the restraining line. Only problem was there was no restraining line. We have several gyms in the city league that use them but this one does not need one. There was a tape line about 5 feet parallel to the side line, dashed for some kind of gym class thing and my partner called that line. Funny in pregame, captains and coaches meetings we never discussed this because it wasn't a restraining line. Partner makes the call, bench erupts and this guy comes out of the stands to complain on the edge of the floor. I come over to help calm everyone and tell this guy to get back in the stands. He says "I'm the varsity coach" so I "T" him up as he is a part of the staff. I then told him to sit down so he can do his game tonight. He says it doesn't carry over and I replied that it will if you are thrown out of the gym for the night. He relented and sat down. I never could get a good explaination from my partner why he called what he did and I've always tried to avoid working with this guy since.

It's not our job to enforce the coach's sitting out the next game. At least in WV. I had a tournament game on a Friday and ejected a coach. I called our governing association and asked the interpreter who told me to simply write a report if he coaches and let the association deal with it - but I cannot stop him from coaching.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Maybe where you are but that's not the interpretation here. As stmaryrams stated, he is part of the basketball staff and is expected to conduct himself according to the rules at all times. If he comes out of the stands on me, one T and he's done. And we will having backing from the local and state associations if that happens.

So you're telling us that a T cannot be assessed to a team for the behavior of a team supporter? I don't think so my geriatric partner.

Um, no. I never said that anywhere. I said verbatim- "It's usually a last resort to throw "T"s at at fans anyway". Basically, that's exactly what case book play 2.8.1 recommends--"this authority must be used with extreme caution and discretion". I agree with the direction that the FED has given us.

And I 'll stick to my previous statements too. Someone who is in the stands is NOT a bench coach, by rule. Unless the Varsity coach is specifically listed on the score sheet as an assistant coach, he's a fan.

If you consider the Varsity coach as part of the JV staff, then are you prepared to immediately "T" up the varsity coach when you see him up in the stands? Even before he says something? After all, if you want to insist that he's an assistant JV coach, then he's illegally off the bench as per rule 10-4-4, isn't he?

[BktBallRef]

Sure you did. You wrote, "Again, never do what can't be explained logically or can't be justified by the rules."

Now, please, please, please tell me where I wrote that he was part of the JV staff. I said he's part of the basketball coaching staff at the school. If he starts abusing officials, whether standing on the floor or sitting in the stands, I have no problem calling a technical foul on him and getting rid of him. The JV coach is not going to lose the coaching box but his team will be penalized for this coach's behavior. Further, the NCHSAA is going to get rid of him for two more games, at the JV and varsity level.

As long as he's sitting in the stands, setting a proper example and not inserting himself into the game, he can sit there forever. Ordinary fan pulls that crap, who cares? But this guy knows better and he'll pay the price.

Again, thankfully, we have the local and state association backing. Using the fan rule to apply to this situation is perfectly legal and acceptable.