The "And 1"

[Old School]

Big guy shoots a layup, little guy got no chance to stop. Big guy is gonna make this shot, however, little guy hits his shooting arm. Ball goes in, play on, no foul. I have done this many times.

Being a player and I still play on occasion. Current college players play thru contract. In the pickup games, they beat here other up. I mean they battle and they never call a foul or slow the game down. The professional player knows to play thru some contact.

Where I got myself in some trouble is my scenario above. In one instance, the shot doesn't go down. So in this situation, men's game, I got disadvantage because he hit the shooting arm, so I put air in the whistle, 2 shots!!! The best dunker in the gym came out of nowhere, caught the ball off the rim and made a spectacle put-back dunk! Bought the house down. Damn! I said to myself as I had to wave it off, 2 shots for the big guy, little guy on the shooting arm.

I think this is an excellent question. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. Isn't officiating fun? Coaches will play both sides of this issue too. They will say, if you don't call it and the shot falls out, call the foul ref! Then, if something like what I explained above happens. Coach will say, come on ref, you could have let that one go! Defensive coach will say, good call ref!

[SmokeEater]

If its a foul, ITS A FOUL. Make the call and be CONSISTANT.

There is nothing I hate more then having to say to a coach that the ball went in so we no called it at your end but the exact same contact at the other end gets called because your opponent missed his shot.

Actually I have never had to do this but would really not like to either.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

If its a foul, ITS A FOUL. Make the call and be CONSISTANT.

While true, this tautology is unhelpful advice to someone trying to determine whether it's a foul.

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

There is nothing I hate more then having to say to a coach that the ball went in so we no called it at your end but the exact same contact at the other end gets called because your opponent missed his shot.

Actually I have never had to do this but would really not like to either.

This doesn't make sense to me. If it were the exact same contact, the shot would have gone in. The fact that the shot was missed shows that it was NOT the exact same contact.

[SmokeEater]

Not necessarily. A lucky bouce on the rim and in it goes or one player just is able to play through the contact. Still same contact just different result.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

This doesn't make sense to me. If it were the exact same contact, the shot would have gone in. The fact that the shot was missed shows that it was NOT the exact same contact.

Now this doesn't make sense at all.

Why assume 2 different players react the same to contact?
Why assume both players shot the ball exactly the same way?

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by mbyron

While true, this tautology is unhelpful advice to someone trying to determine whether it's a foul.



This doesn't make sense to me. If it were the exact same contact, the shot would have gone in. The fact that the shot was missed shows that it was NOT the exact same contact.

Why not? It was 2 different shooters on 2 different shots from 2 different spots.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Old School

Big guy shoots a layup, little guy got no chance to stop. Big guy is gonna make this shot, however, little guy hits his shooting arm. Ball goes in, play on, no foul. I have done this many times.

Being a player and I still play on occasion. Current college players play thru contract. In the pickup games, they beat here other up. I mean they battle and they never call a foul or slow the game down. The professional player knows to play thru some contact.

Where I got myself in some trouble is my scenario above. In one instance, the shot doesn't go down. So in this situation, men's game, I got disadvantage because he hit the shooting arm, so I put air in the whistle, 2 shots!!! The best dunker in the gym came out of nowhere, caught the ball off the rim and made a spectacle put-back dunk! Bought the house down. Damn! I said to myself as I had to wave it off, 2 shots for the big guy, little guy on the shooting arm.

I think this is an excellent question. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. Isn't officiating fun? Coaches will play both sides of this issue too. They will say, if you don't call it and the shot falls out, call the foul ref! Then, if something like what I explained above happens. Coach will say, come on ref, you could have let that one go! Defensive coach will say, good call ref!

I think someone will have something to say about part of your post above.

I was wondering why this thread kept growing and now I see. It is sort of funny to see someone say they don't have much experience and then go on to say, with authority, what is and isn't an "and 1." Calling a foul a foul regardless of anything else? Yeah, tell us how that works out for you. How many officials have a different opinion about these calls now than they did 10 years ago? I do. How many officials would call them differently now than they would 10 years ago? I do. How many officials can instinctively call a high school game on Tuesday differently than a JUCO game on Wednesday? Instincts or a feel for the game is what changes with experience. The more you have a feel for the game the better we handle situations and recognize BS like asking someone to chime in with a rule about an "and 1" situation. My advice would probably be close to:

If you are doing JV games, work on your focus in your primary and call almost everything you think is a foul regardless of the ball going in or not. As time goes on and you move up, develop a feel for these plays - and the game (awareness).

I can absolutely say that I have no absolutes when it comes to most of these plays.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I can absolutely say that I have no absolutes when it comes to most of these plays.

Bingo!

We have a winner.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Old School

blah, blah, blah

Originally Posted by tomegun

I think someone will have something to say about part of your post above.

Some of us have exercised the Ignore option when it comes to particular person.

[SeanFitzRef]

As I have been moving up the ladder, the line of thinking that I have been presented with on this topic is that a varsity, college, and\or pro ref has to make a decision based on what they can pass on, not what they should call. This way, the game flows more.

There might be contact on a pass and crash, but the ball was thrown out of bounds. Save the foul, award the ball out of bounds to team B. Keep playing.

A1 running on a break; B1 comes in late and tries to stop the layup. B1 reaches in and fouls A1 as A1 passes ahead to A2 for the dunk/layup. Do you call B1's foul or let it go for the two points that A got?

Ultimately, teams want to score. Incidental contact is part of the game, and all contact is not necessarily a foul. The decisions that are made by us can make or break a game, but each individual ref has his/her own philosophy about what they should and shouldn't call. Our assignors also carry a heavy influence on what we should and shouldn't call, and we have to appease them in order to continue to move up the ladder. So work with it.