Subsitution problems

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Are you working NCAAW games? That is the only rule set which I know of where a whistle is required or even desired for bringing in subs.

I'm with Tom, the fewer whistles during the game, the better. I want to be able to hear when I'm 50!

I wish people would realize that local custom and practice count for something. Using a whistle or not using a whistle is a trivial thing and sometimes it's better to adapt to the local custom than stubbornly point at a mechanics manual and convince others that they are "wrong."

[Eastshire]

I have to use the whistle because the table never uses the horn.

[Back In The Saddle]

I used to be a no whistle guy. I had a camp this summer where they specificially told us they wanted a whistle on every sub (the camp was run by the local college assigner, a retired D1 womens official -- when in Rome...). Since then, I've just kept on using it.

I have noticed that using the whistle can work to your advantage in one small, but helpful way. If you can consistently get a whistle on the sub before the table gets a horn on him, it makes you look more on top of stuff.

[tw1ns]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I have to use the whistle because the table never uses the horn.

I guess you could solve that by telling the operator to sound the horn when the subs have properly reported...
I have noticed that some crews like to blow the whistle every time the ball is put into play...not necessary. But, I do agree, if there has been a delay, or if you want to get someones attention, blow it.

[OHBBREF]

I think thatyou will find that NHFS Rule 3 section 3 Article 1 D covers the situation
If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as,the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.
and NCAA Rule 3 section 4When entry is any time other than between halves, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the timer shall sound the horn when (or as soon as) the ball is dead and time is out.

there is also information about being beconed onto the floor - however the scorer or timer is by rule to sound the horn to notify the officials of a substitute.

Now if you are allowing subs to enter from the bench - because someone is yelling sub then a whistle may be necessary -
IMHO you are wrong - the player should be at the table ready to go at the dead ball to be allowed to enter the game at that time. it is the rule if you enforce it they will adapt.

[JRutledge]

The situation you just posted does not say not to blow the whistle. That was the point. Of course the horn can be sounded, but it does not say you should not blow the whistle as an official in this situation. That was the point of my post.

Peace

[OHBBREF]

I think that blowing the whistle to bring in a player is optional after the horn is blown and depends on where the beconing official is on the floor at the time. but during this thread I got the impression that in a lot of cases people are not blowing the horn to notify officials of the substitiute that is wrong by rule.

[tomegun]

IMO, a table crew who blows the horn at the appropriate time and not using whistles makes things cleaner. Maybe it is just about where I worked at the longest, but that is what I like the best. BTW, in Las Vegas the table crew are part of the association, are adults and are paid to do a good job. That could be where the difference is.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I think that blowing the whistle to bring in a player is optional after the horn is blown and depends on where the beconing official is on the floor at the time. but during this thread I got the impression that in a lot of cases people are not blowing the horn to notify officials of the substitiute that is wrong by rule.

There are times when I will beat the table to the horn, but usually it's simultaneous (or close to it).

I will wait for a substitute if he/she is getting up and looks like he/she will be heading to the table. We're consistent as a crew on that regard.

--Rich

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I wish people would realize that local custom and practice count for something. Using a whistle or not using a whistle is a trivial thing and sometimes it's better to adapt to the local custom than stubbornly point at a mechanics manual and convince others that they are "wrong."

I would have to look it up, but this is not really addressed in the NF manual. Either way it goes, who cares if you blow the whistle or not as long as you are following what is accepted. Waiting on the horn is not always the best thing when you have table personnel does not properly use the horn. I personally perfer blowing my whistle because if I do not, the horn might go off at the wrong time and it lets my partner know that I am holding them up for a reason.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I personally perfer blowing my whistle because if I do not, the horn might go off at the wrong time and it lets my partner know that I am holding them up for a reason.

I was under the impression that one of the IL State clinicians specfically sadi NOT to use the whistle (on most, normal, substituitons).

It is a specific NCAAW mechanic to use the whistle on subs.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I was under the impression that one of the IL State clinicians specfically sadi NOT to use the whistle (on most, normal, substituitons).

It is a specific NCAAW mechanic to use the whistle on subs.

I did not say there was anything official from anyone. If this was the official word, I would have made that very clear. I have been told in many situations to blow the whistle at camps both HS and college camps. I will say that I have worked with a few clinicians and no one said not to blow the whistle or that the IHSA had a specific policy. As far as I know it is one of those many things that depending on who you talk to or who you work with will make an issue out of this one way or another.

Peace

[Red_Killian]

Last Friday I was evaluating a new official during the 1st half of the JV game and the veteran official blew his whistle on every sub, regardless of the table sounding the horn. I was sitting right behind the table and they did a fine job with the horn. The whistle got pretty annoying when it was always horn, short delay, whistle. Way too redundant and what's the point? I was told at State, if the table uses the horn for subs then skip the whistle. We don't need horn AND whistle.

But, like has been said, follow the local custom.....

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Red_Killian

Last Friday I was evaluating a new official during the 1st half of the JV game and the veteran official blew his whistle on every sub, regardless of the table sounding the horn. I was sitting right behind the table and they did a fine job with the horn. The whistle got pretty annoying when it was always horn, short delay, whistle. Way too redundant and what's the point? I was told at State, if the table uses the horn for subs then skip the whistle. We don't need horn AND whistle.

But, like has been said, follow the local custom.....

Your situation is my point exactly.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I wish people would realize that local custom and practice count for something. Using a whistle or not using a whistle is a trivial thing and sometimes it's better to adapt to the local custom than stubbornly point at a mechanics manual and convince others that they are "wrong."

Rich,
I would not go so far as to tell you that you are "wrong" for something like this. I actually just believe that it is an irritant and calls unnecessary attention to the officials. My preference is that the officials only get noticed during a game when they have to be. Otherwise, leave the attention on the players.

As for your point about local custom, I could well turn that around and ask why people in local areas stubbornly refuse to simply follow the manual and insist on adapting things in their own way. I've never understood why some people feel the need to make these little alterations.