Subsitution problems

[OHBBREF]

I think thatyou will find that NHFS Rule 3 section 3 Article 1 D covers the situation
If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as,the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.
and NCAA Rule 3 section 4When entry is any time other than between halves, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the timer shall sound the horn when (or as soon as) the ball is dead and time is out.

there is also information about being beconed onto the floor - however the scorer or timer is by rule to sound the horn to notify the officials of a substitute.

Now if you are allowing subs to enter from the bench - because someone is yelling sub then a whistle may be necessary -
IMHO you are wrong - the player should be at the table ready to go at the dead ball to be allowed to enter the game at that time. it is the rule if you enforce it they will adapt.

[JRutledge]

The situation you just posted does not say not to blow the whistle. That was the point. Of course the horn can be sounded, but it does not say you should not blow the whistle as an official in this situation. That was the point of my post.

Peace

[OHBBREF]

I think that blowing the whistle to bring in a player is optional after the horn is blown and depends on where the beconing official is on the floor at the time. but during this thread I got the impression that in a lot of cases people are not blowing the horn to notify officials of the substitiute that is wrong by rule.

[tomegun]

IMO, a table crew who blows the horn at the appropriate time and not using whistles makes things cleaner. Maybe it is just about where I worked at the longest, but that is what I like the best. BTW, in Las Vegas the table crew are part of the association, are adults and are paid to do a good job. That could be where the difference is.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I think that blowing the whistle to bring in a player is optional after the horn is blown and depends on where the beconing official is on the floor at the time. but during this thread I got the impression that in a lot of cases people are not blowing the horn to notify officials of the substitiute that is wrong by rule.

There are times when I will beat the table to the horn, but usually it's simultaneous (or close to it).

I will wait for a substitute if he/she is getting up and looks like he/she will be heading to the table. We're consistent as a crew on that regard.

--Rich

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by tomegun

IMO, a table crew who blows the horn at the appropriate time and not using whistles makes things cleaner. Maybe it is just about where I worked at the longest, but that is what I like the best. BTW, in Las Vegas the table crew are part of the association, are adults and are paid to do a good job. That could be where the difference is.

That must be the life, my table crew tends to be players from the B team for the A team game and vica versa.

[Chess Ref]

most of the varsity games here have adults at the table. But our lower level games usually are the kid who happened to be hanging around the gym at game time. I am developing pretty good clock management skills because of this . I miss Las Vegas. grew up outside of town and went to school there and lived there for awhile. Saw an old JR High Math teacher reffing one night there at Green Valley High. I didn't get a chance to say hi though...

[JRutledge]

The problem I see is the table personnel are not always very competent where I live. You get some that are wonderful and you get others that have no idea what to do. Even if you have a pre-game with the table that is not going to make it any better. Many times the timer will blow the horn when the sub is not even at the table and after we have given the ball to the thrower on a throw-in or FT. So I tell them to not blow that whistle unless they have been sitting at that table for several seconds and we did not acknowledge them. This helps make the table feel they do not have to blow the horn all the time. Basically if I can prevent the table from blowing the whistle I have accomplished something.

I used to not believe this, but I have changed my point of view because of the many problems I have had over the years with the table. I have also been told to use the whistle more and more at camps. It works for me.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I personally perfer blowing my whistle because if I do not, the horn might go off at the wrong time and it lets my partner know that I am holding them up for a reason.

I was under the impression that one of the IL State clinicians specfically sadi NOT to use the whistle (on most, normal, substituitons).

It is a specific NCAAW mechanic to use the whistle on subs.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I was under the impression that one of the IL State clinicians specfically sadi NOT to use the whistle (on most, normal, substituitons).

It is a specific NCAAW mechanic to use the whistle on subs.

I did not say there was anything official from anyone. If this was the official word, I would have made that very clear. I have been told in many situations to blow the whistle at camps both HS and college camps. I will say that I have worked with a few clinicians and no one said not to blow the whistle or that the IHSA had a specific policy. As far as I know it is one of those many things that depending on who you talk to or who you work with will make an issue out of this one way or another.

Peace

[Red_Killian]

Last Friday I was evaluating a new official during the 1st half of the JV game and the veteran official blew his whistle on every sub, regardless of the table sounding the horn. I was sitting right behind the table and they did a fine job with the horn. The whistle got pretty annoying when it was always horn, short delay, whistle. Way too redundant and what's the point? I was told at State, if the table uses the horn for subs then skip the whistle. We don't need horn AND whistle.

But, like has been said, follow the local custom.....

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Red_Killian

Last Friday I was evaluating a new official during the 1st half of the JV game and the veteran official blew his whistle on every sub, regardless of the table sounding the horn. I was sitting right behind the table and they did a fine job with the horn. The whistle got pretty annoying when it was always horn, short delay, whistle. Way too redundant and what's the point? I was told at State, if the table uses the horn for subs then skip the whistle. We don't need horn AND whistle.

But, like has been said, follow the local custom.....

Your situation is my point exactly.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

I wish people would realize that local custom and practice count for something. Using a whistle or not using a whistle is a trivial thing and sometimes it's better to adapt to the local custom than stubbornly point at a mechanics manual and convince others that they are "wrong."

Rich,
I would not go so far as to tell you that you are "wrong" for something like this. I actually just believe that it is an irritant and calls unnecessary attention to the officials. My preference is that the officials only get noticed during a game when they have to be. Otherwise, leave the attention on the players.

As for your point about local custom, I could well turn that around and ask why people in local areas stubbornly refuse to simply follow the manual and insist on adapting things in their own way. I've never understood why some people feel the need to make these little alterations.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Rich,
I would not go so far as to tell you that you are "wrong" for something like this. I actually just believe that it is an irritant and calls unnecessary attention to the officials. My preference is that the officials only get noticed during a game when they have to be. Otherwise, leave the attention on the players.

As for your point about local custom, I could well turn that around and ask why people in local areas stubbornly refuse to simply follow the manual and insist on adapting things in their own way. I've never understood why some people feel the need to make these little alterations.

The fact is they do. The book is not magical, all-wise, nor all-knowing. It's not revealed truth. It's a tool to get us all on the same page. And if some choose to do things different from the book, but the same as each other, have they not achieved the same end?

BTW, if everybody in a region uses a whistle on subs, the guy who doesn't is drawing unneccessary attention to himself by withholding it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The fact is they do. The book is not magical, all-wise, nor all-knowing. It's not revealed truth. It's a tool to get us all on the same page. And if some choose to do things different from the book, but the same as each other, have they not achieved the same end?

BTW, if everybody in a region uses a whistle on subs, the guy who doesn't is drawing unneccessary attention to himself by withholding it.

It has also been established that any state can use variations of mechanics from the NF book. So for anyone to suggest that we must look only at the NF book, they have never talked to anyone from the NF office, because they do not see things that way at all.

Secondly, the NF book does not cover all situations. I am still waiting for the reference in the book that says "you cannot use the whistle in any substitution situation." If someone can show a passage or similar passage, then I will believe them when they say this is against NF mechanics. Even in the CCA Men's book it does not address this, but I have been told many times to blow the whistle and have witnessed the whistle being blown on substitutions in person watching D1 officials.

Peace