backcourt violation?

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I had a play last night. Start of the quarter. A1 passes the ball to A2 who jumps from the front court, catches the ball while in the air and lands in the back court. I blew the whistle and called a backcourt violation thinking that A2 had already established his position in the front court when he caught the ball and had not established his posiition in the back court (which would've been legal if he was already there).

An assignor that I work for happened to be at the game and came into the locker room afterwards and said I should've not called that, that it was a legal play as it was an inbounds play. I had enough sense not to debate it, but I've been thinking about it today at work and thought I 'd run it by the best source other than the books themselves....you folks.

That specific exception is illustrated in the comic book also.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

What about if its the inbound play to start the 2d quarter? Since its an inbounds play, does A2 have front court status before the ball is inbounded or not?

I think FC/BC status does not matter on throw-in. (The in-bounds play devised by the coach has little to do with the sitch.) The concern would be whether the throw-in has ended. If throw-in has ended, the BC/FC status matters, unless on defense.

(Which is what was posted previously, but I hadn't yet read)


edited for grammar and hasty typing.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Nu1

On a throw-in, A1 is out of bounds and throws to A2 who is airborne having jumped from the front court. While airborne, A2 passes the ball to A3 who is in the backcourt. Violation NFHS?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NFHS: Violation

A1 inbounds to A2 who is in the air, last having touched the frontcourt, but instead of catching and throwing to A3 (A3 is in the backcourt) before touching the backcourt, bats or tips (without catching or palming) to A3 in the backcourt. Still a violation?

(I think I know the answer...)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

I think FC/BC status does not matter on throw-in. (The in-bounds play devised by the coach has little to do with the sitch.) The concern would be whether the throw-in has ended. If throw-in has ended, the BC/FC status matters, unless on defense.

(Which is what was posted previously, but I hadn't yet read)


edited for grammar and hasty typing.

Don't forget that player/team control needs to get established also.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

A1 inbounds to A2 who is in the air, last having touched the frontcourt, but instead of catching and throwing to A3 (A3 is in the backcourt) before touching the backcourt, bats or tips (without catching or palming) to A3 in the backcourt. Still a violation?

(I think I know the answer...)

Yes, this is a violation.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yes, this is a violation.

Are you sure?

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yes, this is a violation.

Because...?

[Adam]

I blame (insert political figure here) and retract my statement.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I blame George Washington and retract my statement.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

A1 inbounds to A2 who is in the air, last having touched the frontcourt, but instead of catching and throwing to A3 (A3 is in the backcourt) before touching the backcourt, bats or tips (without catching or palming) to A3 in the backcourt. Still a violation?

(I think I know the answer...)

No, it's not. No team control is established.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, it's not. No team control is established.

4-12 ART. 2 . . . A team is in control of the ball when a player of the team is in control, while a live ball is being passed among teammates and during an interrupted dribble.

4-31 PASS
A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.

Sit. 4.12.6 gets close to addressing this, but not quite, IMO, because it is talking about a "touch," as opposed to an intentional redirecting of the ball toward a teammate (bat = pass). So I'm inclined to think that this is a pass, and that constitutes team control.

Thoughts?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I blame (insert political figure here)

Blame Canada!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nu1

I believe this was discussed on a recent thread. If so, could someone kindly post the link...or recap this for me. (Yes, you could post it rudely also.)

On a throw-in, A1 is out of bounds and throws to A2 who is airborne having jumped from the front court. While airborne, A2 passes the ball to A3 who is in the backcourt.
Violation NFHS?
Violation NCAA?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NFHS: Violation
NCAA: Legal (so I've been told, and I accept, but I have a hard time "proving" it in the book)

Originally Posted by Nu1

Thanks Bob.

I've been told / read the same for NCAA, but I can't figure it out myself. Rule 9-12.8 says on a throw-in or jump ball an airborne player who secures control of the ball in the front court shall not be permitted to cause the ball to go into the back court. The only exception listed is the defensive player going airborne...intercepting a pass...and landing in the back court. (Of course 9-12.7 says an offensive player can secure and land in the back court off of a throw-in or jump ball.)

But I can't see how the scenario of A1 out of bounds...throwing it in to airborne A2 (from the front court)...who throws it to A3 in the back court is legal.

We agree that this is a violation in NFHS.
For NCAA, I happen to believe from reading the rules myself that it is also a violation, however, on page 23 of the November issue of Referee Magazine there is an article written by associate editor Ken Koester entitled "Accepting the Backcourt Exceptions." In this article he includes, "Play 1: A3, standing in the frontcourt, jumps into the air and (a) secures possession of a jump ball, or (b) receives a throw-in from A2. A3, still airborne, passes the ball to A4 in the backcourt, who catches the ball there. Ruling 1: In NFHS, backcourt violation in both cases. In NCAA, legal plays."
In addition to that he writes it is NOT a violation in NCAA men's and women's games when a team B player jumps from the frontcourt and gains possession of a ball that had not been in team B's control and then (while still airborne) passes to a teammate in the backcourt. He provides the following rule citations: 4-28, 9-11-1 A.R. 21, 9-11-6.
For anyone who tries to look those up, good luck, as you will find that 9-11 is "Shot Clock" and 9-12 is "Ball in Back Court," but even assuming he meant 12 instead of 11 (or that it was 11 in an older version of the NCAA rules, which I believe it was) his A.R. reference doesn't make sense.

I could not find his officiating bio either in the magazine or on the website, so I don't know if he is a current D1 ref or not.

Personally, I think that he is incorrect due to the following NCAA rules:

9-12-8.

A player who is the first to secure control of the ball in the front court after a jump ball or a throw-in while both feet are off the playing court shall not be permitted to cause the ball to go into the back court, except as permitted in Rule 9-12.6.

9-12-6.

A defensive player shall be permitted to secure control of the ball while both feet are off the playing court and land with one or both feet in the back court.

9-12-6 says nothing about being allowed to make a pass to a teammate in the backcourt.

Perhaps he is correct and I am not. I have made mistakes before. Maybe someone will go to the RM website and email him about this.

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

A1 inbounds to A2 who is in the air, last having touched the frontcourt, but instead of catching and throwing to A3 (A3 is in the backcourt) before touching the backcourt, bats or tips (without catching or palming) to A3 in the backcourt. Still a violation?

(I think I know the answer...)

NCAA 9-12-5.

During a throw-in when the ball is located out of bounds and adjacent to either a front-court or back-court boundary line, an inbounds player in the front court who is not in control of the ball may cause the ball to go into the back court.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

NCAA: Legal (so I've been told, and I accept, but I have a hard time "proving" it in the book)

Why would this be legal under NCAA rules? If anything, it's harder to support as being legal because team control exists during the throw-in (unlike NFHS).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Why would this be legal under NCAA rules? If anything, it's harder to support as being legal because team control exists during the throw-in (unlike NFHS).

My guess (and it's just a guess) is that this used to be legal (and clear) in the NCAA rule book. When they had that massive rewrite back in '00 (or so), the clarity of the rule was lost.

Someone who is closer to the NCAA rules committee / editor would have to ask if the rule still exists.