a rough night

[Old School]

I'm not so sure I agree with everyone's thought pattern here. Pretty much everyone is saying stand your ground with a senior official. Go line up the players and shoot the 1 - 1 against your senior partners ruling. This does not sound like a verry wise thing to do, especially if you are a rookie. Not to mention, you don't want to stand out there arguing with your partner about a call. This makes both of you look stupid. Make a decision and move on. If you are not the R for the game, stand down and let the R make the decision. If it's the wrong thing to do, it is on the R and it will come back to him.

Since we do not know the R side of the story. I'm going to withhold judgement. However, I will say this, challenging a more senior partner could be detrimental to your career. Don't ever think it's okay to show up your partner like you have been advised to do here. That's like showing up your dad. Yea, you are right but..... If you are not the person responsible to make the decision, then yeild to that person. One day you will be that person and you will be the wisher.

The next thing you need to do in my opinion is call the person that assigned you the game. Get their advise about the play in question so that you can learn and let the assigner get back to the Referee of the game. If the R did something wrong, the assigner will get back to him. By doing this, you cover your bases.

Peace

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Old School

If you are not the person responsible to make the decision, then yeild to that person.

The problem is, you are the person responsible here. You're the calling official.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Old School

I'm not so sure I agree with everyone's thought pattern here. Pretty much everyone is saying stand your ground with a senior official. Go line up the players and shoot the 1 - 1 against your senior partners ruling. This does not sound like a verry wise thing to do, especially if you are a rookie. Not to mention, you don't want to stand out there arguing with your partner about a call. This makes both of you look stupid. Make a decision and move on. If you are not the R for the game, stand down and let the R make the decision. If it's the wrong thing to do, it is on the R and it will come back to him.

Since we do not know the R side of the story. I'm going to withhold judgement. However, I will say this, challenging a more senior partner could be detrimental to your career. Don't ever think it's okay to show up your partner like you have been advised to do here. That's like showing up your dad. Yea, you are right but..... If you are not the person responsible to make the decision, then yeild to that person. One day you will be that person and you will be the wisher.

The next thing you need to do in my opinion is call the person that assigned you the game. Get their advise about the play in question so that you can learn and let the assigner get back to the Referee of the game. If the R did something wrong, the assigner will get back to him. By doing this, you cover your bases.

Peace

I certainly hope that you are not mentoring people in your association. Should someone step in and change the other guy's calls because he is more senior even though the changed call is wrong? That is what you imply here.
btw, do you know anyone named JMO?

[Back In The Saddle]

Your partner put you in a very unfortunate situation. You've got to decide whether to stand your ground, or let it go. No self-respecting, intelligent official wants to knowingly get a rule wrong. On the other hand, how much conflict with your partner will be required to get it right if he really wants to fight you on this? You've still got a game to manage and getting into a heated exchange with your partner while the world looks on isn't going to help that.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Your partner put you in a very unfortunate situation. You've got to decide whether to stand your ground, or let it go. No self-respecting, intelligent official wants to knowingly get a rule wrong. On the other hand, how much conflict with your partner will be required to get it right if he really wants to fight you on this? You've still got a game to manage and getting into a heated exchange with your partner while the world looks on isn't going to help that.

This seems to be the $64,000 question in the sitch of the OP. How far do you go when you know that your position is correct?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

This seems to be the $64,000 question in the sitch of the OP. How far do you go when you know that your position is correct?

#1) Protect the integrity of the game
#2) Protect the integrity of the participants
#3) Protect the integrity of your crew

#1 is way more important than #3...go as far as you need to to protect the game.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

#1) Protect the integrity of the game
#2) Protect the integrity of the participants
#3) Protect the integrity of your crew

#1 is way more important than #3...go as far as you need to to protect the game.

Just so I understand you, are you saying that it's more important to get the administration correct and potentially "air dirty laundry" for all to see, or go with an incorrect administration and not cause a scene. Not trolling, just interested in getting a clarification.

I think this is an interesting situation and I am glad that I know my partners well enough that all it would take is, "I'm 100% sure on this and I'll take the heat if I'm not".

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

Just so I understand you, are you saying that it's more important to get the administration correct and potentially "air dirty laundry" for all to see, or go with an incorrect administration and not cause a scene. Not trolling, just interested in getting a clarification.

I think this is an interesting situation and I am glad that I know my partners well enough that all it would take is, "I'm 100% sure on this and I'll take the heat if I'm not".

The problem is that there's a false dichotomy set up here. This isn't an either/or situation.

Of course if the partner gets nasty and starts yelling and gesticulating, you back down.


But that's not generally the problem. Generally, the newer, less experienced ref (who is also generally not the R) isn't sure whether to insist on his way, or not. When we say here that the R does not have the right to overrule the U, we're saying that the U needs to learn how to appropriately assert his own call, and administer it in a reasonable fashion.

Whoever calls something has the right to go ahead and administer that call. No one has the right to overrule. If the "more experienced" ref tries to step in and insist on overruling, then the other calling official needs to know how to assert himself in an appropirate manner. It can be done. And it doesn't have to lead to blows or yelling.

If I make a call and my partner insists on being obnoxious, I might back down for the sake of protecting the integrity of the game, or I might stand firm for the sake of the integrity of the game. Either way, I'm gonna report the idiot. And I have.

What OP needs to know, is that yelling, fighting in public scenario isn't all that common, and it's not something that needs to be worried about. If OP will calmly but firmly manage the situation and assert his own correctness (even when he's wrong!), 90% (or more!) of partners will cope with it, and back down. Which is, btw, the right thing to do.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

Just so I understand you, are you saying that it's more important to get the administration correct and potentially "air dirty laundry" for all to see, or go with an incorrect administration and not cause a scene. Not trolling, just interested in getting a clarification.

I think this is an interesting situation and I am glad that I know my partners well enough that all it would take is, "I'm 100% sure on this and I'll take the heat if I'm not".

Protect the integrity of the game...doesn't need to involve any "airing" of anything...just do what needs to be done so the game is administered correctly...if the partner is screwing it up, don't back down just because he/she has more experience...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

I certainly hope that you are not mentoring people in your association. Should someone step in and change the other guy's calls because he is more senior even though the changed call is wrong? That is what you imply here.

That is not what I am implying. As I stated, I'm withholding judgement because I was not there. The R did not change the officials call. The call was a foul on B2, this did not get changed. What got changed was the tables decision that we are now in the bonus. The R could have misread the scoreboard and thought the team foul count went to the other team, therefore, we are not shooting. I have made this mistake plenty of times. I have also seen the table credit this count to the wrong team.

My point simply was, let's not be so right that we rule out any other possibly and become defensive about our calls. This can lead to some nasty consequences of which nobody wins. I think as a society we are too quick to judge, especially when we don't have all the information.

I have had personal experience with a senior partner changing my call in the game, in a very BIG game. The point I want everyone to know, especially new officials to the trade. The show is not about us! The game must go on. No official can change another officials call. However, when officials disagree, now the burden switches to the R and the R is responsible to make a decision. All of you are responsible to move the game on. Get the ball back in play asap. Discuss the play at a timeout, after the game, or if bad enough, with the assigner after the game.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) I have had personal experience with a senior partner changing my call in the game, in a very BIG game.

2) No official can change another officials call. However, when officials disagree, now the burden switches to the R and the R is responsible to make a decision.

2) If no official can change another official's call, then how can the R subsequently change another official's call? Please cite the rule # where I may find that the R is responsible to make a decision when officials disagree. That statement seems to be directly contradicted by rule 2-6 and a statement found in case book 2.6SitA. I'll leave you to look those statements up in your rule book and case book and comment on why they completely contradict what you are saying.

[refnrev]

Just remember your next game has got to get better! Also, in some areas where there is no shortage of officials not working V ball after 4 years is a very common thing. Or its very possible that your guy is not very good. You make the call!

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If no official can change another official's call, then how can the R subsequently change another official's call? Please cite the rule # where I may find that the R is responsible to make a decision when officials disagree. That statement seems to be directly contradicted by rule 2-6 and a statement found in case book 2.6SitA. I'll leave you to look those statements up in your rule book and case book and comment on why they completely contradict what you are saying.

Based on what was reported here, the R didn't attempt to change a call. However, if the officials disagree, what would you recommend they do? Continue to argue about it until they come to blows. Referees are proud people, now you got two very proud people officiating this game and neither will give in on there position. What do you do next? Maybe it's not specifically stated in the rulebook but I would not have a problem with the R for the game making a decision and saying let's move on. The point being we got a decision, made by the Lead Official for the game and now we are going to move on.



Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

However, if the officials disagree, what would you recommend they do?

What does the rule and case book tell the officials to do when they disagree?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What does the rule and case book tell the officials to do when they disagree?

It doesn't specifically.