a rough night

[JRutledge]

Find a mentor and talk to them about these situations first before you go reporting it to an assignor. Reporting something to the assignor should be your last resort. A mentor should be able to talk to you about who this official is and why they are working with you in this game. If you are a rookie, that must mean you are not working a very high level game. You are also talking about a 4 year guy. He is not that much more experienced than you are.

You need to always ask yourself when you work games with any partner, "Why are they working with me?" You can ask this question at any time and at any level. Sometimes they are there to save your behind from making mistakes to they are working the level you are at because they are not that good. This might help give you confidence when you know a rule is being kicked to take charge. You should have taken charge in this situation, but you had to go through this to realize this in the end.

Peace

[refnjoe]

Thanks JRut & Fred, I appreciate those thoughts.

I do have a couple friends that I know in my other professional life- one has been in my association for 10 years, and the other for about 5. I did run it by the 10-year vet and he gave me guidance on how I should approach the issue and who I should talk to. The advice that I got is that they would want me to say something.

Without getting into the details, I didn't take it to THE assigning secretary, but spoke to an assistant and a JV rep.

I also made it clear that I wasn't complaining. Rather, I asked them about the association's expectations of me and refrained from mentioning the day of the game, team names, or my partner's name.

Based on the response I got, it seemed that the advice I received was sound and I'm glad I spoke to them.

[Old School]

I'm not so sure I agree with everyone's thought pattern here. Pretty much everyone is saying stand your ground with a senior official. Go line up the players and shoot the 1 - 1 against your senior partners ruling. This does not sound like a verry wise thing to do, especially if you are a rookie. Not to mention, you don't want to stand out there arguing with your partner about a call. This makes both of you look stupid. Make a decision and move on. If you are not the R for the game, stand down and let the R make the decision. If it's the wrong thing to do, it is on the R and it will come back to him.

Since we do not know the R side of the story. I'm going to withhold judgement. However, I will say this, challenging a more senior partner could be detrimental to your career. Don't ever think it's okay to show up your partner like you have been advised to do here. That's like showing up your dad. Yea, you are right but..... If you are not the person responsible to make the decision, then yeild to that person. One day you will be that person and you will be the wisher.

The next thing you need to do in my opinion is call the person that assigned you the game. Get their advise about the play in question so that you can learn and let the assigner get back to the Referee of the game. If the R did something wrong, the assigner will get back to him. By doing this, you cover your bases.

Peace

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Old School

If you are not the person responsible to make the decision, then yeild to that person.

The problem is, you are the person responsible here. You're the calling official.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Old School

I'm not so sure I agree with everyone's thought pattern here. Pretty much everyone is saying stand your ground with a senior official. Go line up the players and shoot the 1 - 1 against your senior partners ruling. This does not sound like a verry wise thing to do, especially if you are a rookie. Not to mention, you don't want to stand out there arguing with your partner about a call. This makes both of you look stupid. Make a decision and move on. If you are not the R for the game, stand down and let the R make the decision. If it's the wrong thing to do, it is on the R and it will come back to him.

Since we do not know the R side of the story. I'm going to withhold judgement. However, I will say this, challenging a more senior partner could be detrimental to your career. Don't ever think it's okay to show up your partner like you have been advised to do here. That's like showing up your dad. Yea, you are right but..... If you are not the person responsible to make the decision, then yeild to that person. One day you will be that person and you will be the wisher.

The next thing you need to do in my opinion is call the person that assigned you the game. Get their advise about the play in question so that you can learn and let the assigner get back to the Referee of the game. If the R did something wrong, the assigner will get back to him. By doing this, you cover your bases.

Peace

I certainly hope that you are not mentoring people in your association. Should someone step in and change the other guy's calls because he is more senior even though the changed call is wrong? That is what you imply here.
btw, do you know anyone named JMO?

[Back In The Saddle]

Your partner put you in a very unfortunate situation. You've got to decide whether to stand your ground, or let it go. No self-respecting, intelligent official wants to knowingly get a rule wrong. On the other hand, how much conflict with your partner will be required to get it right if he really wants to fight you on this? You've still got a game to manage and getting into a heated exchange with your partner while the world looks on isn't going to help that.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Your partner put you in a very unfortunate situation. You've got to decide whether to stand your ground, or let it go. No self-respecting, intelligent official wants to knowingly get a rule wrong. On the other hand, how much conflict with your partner will be required to get it right if he really wants to fight you on this? You've still got a game to manage and getting into a heated exchange with your partner while the world looks on isn't going to help that.

This seems to be the $64,000 question in the sitch of the OP. How far do you go when you know that your position is correct?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

This seems to be the $64,000 question in the sitch of the OP. How far do you go when you know that your position is correct?

#1) Protect the integrity of the game
#2) Protect the integrity of the participants
#3) Protect the integrity of your crew

#1 is way more important than #3...go as far as you need to to protect the game.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

I certainly hope that you are not mentoring people in your association. Should someone step in and change the other guy's calls because he is more senior even though the changed call is wrong? That is what you imply here.

That is not what I am implying. As I stated, I'm withholding judgement because I was not there. The R did not change the officials call. The call was a foul on B2, this did not get changed. What got changed was the tables decision that we are now in the bonus. The R could have misread the scoreboard and thought the team foul count went to the other team, therefore, we are not shooting. I have made this mistake plenty of times. I have also seen the table credit this count to the wrong team.

My point simply was, let's not be so right that we rule out any other possibly and become defensive about our calls. This can lead to some nasty consequences of which nobody wins. I think as a society we are too quick to judge, especially when we don't have all the information.

I have had personal experience with a senior partner changing my call in the game, in a very BIG game. The point I want everyone to know, especially new officials to the trade. The show is not about us! The game must go on. No official can change another officials call. However, when officials disagree, now the burden switches to the R and the R is responsible to make a decision. All of you are responsible to move the game on. Get the ball back in play asap. Discuss the play at a timeout, after the game, or if bad enough, with the assigner after the game.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) I have had personal experience with a senior partner changing my call in the game, in a very BIG game.

2) No official can change another officials call. However, when officials disagree, now the burden switches to the R and the R is responsible to make a decision.

2) If no official can change another official's call, then how can the R subsequently change another official's call? Please cite the rule # where I may find that the R is responsible to make a decision when officials disagree. That statement seems to be directly contradicted by rule 2-6 and a statement found in case book 2.6SitA. I'll leave you to look those statements up in your rule book and case book and comment on why they completely contradict what you are saying.

[refnrev]

Just remember your next game has got to get better! Also, in some areas where there is no shortage of officials not working V ball after 4 years is a very common thing. Or its very possible that your guy is not very good. You make the call!

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If no official can change another official's call, then how can the R subsequently change another official's call? Please cite the rule # where I may find that the R is responsible to make a decision when officials disagree. That statement seems to be directly contradicted by rule 2-6 and a statement found in case book 2.6SitA. I'll leave you to look those statements up in your rule book and case book and comment on why they completely contradict what you are saying.

Based on what was reported here, the R didn't attempt to change a call. However, if the officials disagree, what would you recommend they do? Continue to argue about it until they come to blows. Referees are proud people, now you got two very proud people officiating this game and neither will give in on there position. What do you do next? Maybe it's not specifically stated in the rulebook but I would not have a problem with the R for the game making a decision and saying let's move on. The point being we got a decision, made by the Lead Official for the game and now we are going to move on.



Peace

[refnjoe]

Originally Posted by Old School

This makes both of you look stupid. Make a decision and move on. If you are not the R for the game, stand down and let the R make the decision. If it's the wrong thing to do, it is on the R and it will come back to him.

Originally Posted by Old School

challenging a more senior partner could be detrimental to your career. Don't ever think it's okay to show up your partner like you have been advised to do here.

Originally Posted by Old School

The next thing you need to do in my opinion is call the person that assigned you the game.

My post just before this one states that I did check in with not one, but THREE senior officials. One is a mentor. One is the JV rep on our exec board, and the other is the Asst. Signing Secretary who is my point of contact regarding assignments.

Their unanimous advice is the opposite of yours. As the calling official, it is my responsibility to administer the penalty. This wasn't a judgment call or an error in foul count for the bonus, etc. as you had suggested earlier, this was KICKING A RULE. They all said I should have lined up the shooter and shot the one and one.

I was advised that if an evaluator had been present, or a coach complained about this incident, the R would have been suspended, and chances are I would have been as well.

The best advice they gave me was to be confident enough to be sure of what I KNOW, and to admit when I don't know. That way, I know when to be firm and when to let experience prevail.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by refnjoe

The best advice they gave me was to be confident enough to be sure of what I KNOW, and to admit when I don't know. That way, I know when to be firm and when to let experience prevail.

You also learned never to listen to non-officials who don't own rule books.