Intentional Foul on Try

[SoFL_Rookie]

A1 drives the lane, takes off for a try. B1 commits an intentional foul on A1. The try is successful.

I realize that this situation is covered in the NF Illustrated Rules, 10-6 Pen 4. Count the basket, award two free throws and ball to team A.

A veteran official whom I respect told me that he would not call it this way. His point was that this play could result in a 6 point play for team A, and that he didn't want to see the game decided on it. Call a personal foul, count basket, award one free throw.

Help a rookie out, what's the "right" call? Stick to the book or consider the effect to the game? I realize this poses a much bigger question, and I am very interested in experienced opinions here.

Matt
(first HS game next Monday night)

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by SoFL_Rookie
A1 drives the lane, takes off for a try. B1 commits an intentional foul on A1. The try is successful.

I realize that this situation is covered in the NF Illustrated Rules, 10-6 Pen 4. Count the basket, award two free throws and ball to team A.

A veteran official whom I respect told me that he would not call it this way. Call a personal foul, count basket, award one free throw.

Matt, most of the time, your friend is right. If it's a toss-up between a common foul or an intentional, then I'm probably going to call the common foul, and just give one shot. However, if the defender causes really excessive contact (two-hand shove into the third row, while the shooter's in the air), then you will need to call the intentional foul and administer it correctly. The main thing is not to try to split hairs on the intentional foul. If it might or might not be intentional, then it's not.

His point was that this play could result in a 6 point play for team A, and that he didn't want to see the game decided on it.

Actually, it could end up in an 8-point play!! 3-point shot is good, intentional foul is two FTs, then inbound for another 3-pointer!! Oooooo, anybody ever see that?!?!

Have a great game on Monday!!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Actually, it could end up in an 8-point play!! 3-point shot is good, intentional foul is two FTs, then inbound for another 3-pointer!! Oooooo, anybody ever see that?!?!

Have a great game on Monday!!

Chuck -- I saw an 8-point play once under somewhat different circumstances. B (which was my daughter's team) was behind by about 15 near the end of the third quarter. A had possession and was granted a 60 time out. They would receive the ball opposite the table in their back court just above the free throw line extended when the TO was over. Horn went, second horn went, no one came out. Ref hollered, whistled, no motion toward floor. Finally, ref put the ball down and started counting. STILL no motion by either team. Ref got to 5, blew the whistle, signaled that now it's B's ball, STILL no motion by either team. Ref put the ball down again, started counting again. At this point, a player on my daughter's team, Team B, saw somehow what was going on and knew enough to grab a team mate, race across the floor, inbound the ball and make an easy 3-point shot. NOW we got some action!!! Coach A goes postal and started running across the floor, got to the center circle before the ref called a technical. B made both shots, and during the shots Coach A had his girls huddled over near the bench. When the ref got ready to hand off the ball, Coach A STILL didn't have his girls out on the floor. B inbounded for another easy three point shot, as the A players were running out to their positions. They did finally get back into the game enough to inbound the ball under the basket. A still won, unfortunately.

Oh, and Matt, here's the most important piece of advice for your game Monday: HAVE FUN!!!!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by SoFL_Rookie

A veteran official whom I respect told me that he would not call it this way. His point was that this play could result in a 6 point play for team A, and that he didn't want to see the game decided on it.

This is my biggest pet peeve. The rule is there for a reason. If a player commits an intentional foul in this situation, his team should suffer the consequences. If you make the call according to the rule and administer the penalty properly, then it is the player who is deciding the outcome of the game, not the official.

If you choose not to make the correct call because of the severity of the penalty (or for any other reason), then you, not the player, are determining the outcome of the game.

This is the same misguided philisophy that causes some officials not to call fouls at the end of a close game unless they are "hard" fouls, even though they've been calling a certain level of contact a foul throughout the entire game.

This is just plain flat-out wrong.


Now, I'll tell you how I really feel about it.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

This is my biggest pet peeve. The rule is there for a reason. If a player commits an intentional foul in this situation, his team should suffer the consequences. If you make the call according to the rule and administer the penalty properly, then it is the player who is deciding the outcome of the game, not the official.

If you choose not to make the correct call because of the severity of the penalty (or for any other reason), then you, not the player, are determining the outcome of the game.

This is the same misguided philisophy that causes some officials not to call fouls at the end of a close game unless they are "hard" fouls, even though they've been calling a certain level of contact a foul throughout the entire game.

This is just plain flat-out wrong.


Now, I'll tell you how I really feel about it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by SoFL_Rookie
A1 drives the lane, takes off for a try. B1 commits an intentional foul on A1. The try is successful.

I realize that this situation is covered in the NF Illustrated Rules, 10-6 Pen 4. Count the basket, award two free throws and ball to team A.

A veteran official whom I respect told me that he would not call it this way. His point was that this play could result in a 6 point play for team A, and that he didn't want to see the game decided on it. Call a personal foul, count basket, award one free throw.

Help a rookie out, what's the "right" call? Stick to the book or consider the effect to the game? I realize this poses a much bigger question, and I am very interested in experienced opinions here.

Matt
(first HS game next Monday night)

If the foul was clearly intentional then you have to call it that way, the kid who fouled decided the game, not the ref. You will do fine if you remember this one thing.

[AK ref SE]

Well said Mark-

Actually play!
I have called several intentional fouls where this has happened. Team A is on a fast break, Team B player graps player A from behind around the waist ( no attempt what so ever on the ball) Basket good, two shots and the ball.
Tell me why that should not be called that way?

AK ref SE

[pistol]

In my opinion, if it meets the definition of an intentional foul call it that way and don't take the easy way out. We used to call that "bailing out". I'm surprised at some of the responses here!

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by pistol
In my opinion, if it meets the definition of an intentional foul call it that way and don't take the easy way out. We used to call that "bailing out". I'm surprised at some of the responses here!

There was an initial situation that almost every respondent reacted too, and then Chuck's response, with which I somewhat agree. He merely stated that if the shot is made, the intentional had better be clear. I would argue that the same standard should always apply - don't look to call an intentional just because it is a situation in which you think somebody might foul intentionally.

If it is intentional, it is clearly intentional, and it should always be intentional.

[David B]

If it is indeed an intentional foul call it, (I had one last night on an obvious breakaway layup), but if he simply fouls hard give the defense the benefit of the doubt since he did make the basket.

I don't have a problem with an intentional foul, but I would just be 110% sure that's what it was.

This would be like a simultaneous foul. Someone probably fouled first.

Thanks
David
Da

[TPS2859]

Two comments:

By all means have fun. And words of wisdom RELAXE while doing the game.

To Mark, right on! Why should the ref step in and help determine the outcome of the game when the player chose to commit the foul. I'm with you Mark all the way on this one!

[rcwilco]

As stated if we are 110% sure then call it. I have been taught by my mentors that an intentional in the first quarter is the same as an intentional in the fourth quarter or on a drive to the basket. I think we are deciding a game by choosing which fouls (even if intentional) we will call when we know that we saw the foul.
Also there are those things called consistency and itnegrity that might come in to play with ourselves and those watching.
Have fun Monday!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

This is my biggest pet peeve. The rule is there for a reason. If a player commits an intentional foul in this situation, his team should suffer the consequences. If you make the call according to the rule and administer the penalty properly, then it is the player who is deciding the outcome of the game, not the official.

If you choose not to make the correct call because of the severity of the penalty (or for any other reason), then you, not the player, are determining the outcome of the game.

This is the same misguided philisophy that causes some officials not to call fouls at the end of a close game unless they are "hard" fouls, even though they've been calling a certain level of contact a foul throughout the entire game.

This is just plain flat-out wrong.


Now, I'll tell you how I really feel about it.

I could not have said it better my self, Mark.

MTD, Sr.

[Rock'nRef]

I totally agree with Mark that a call should be made the same at the end of the game as at the beginning of the game. Since we are discussing intentional fouls, I find it to be a difficult situation when a team is down by a few points at the end of a game and are in a foul situation. Everyone in the gym knows that this team must foul an opposing player and at times the "fouler" must leave no doubt of the foul (in order to get a quick call and stop the clock). To me, this foul appears intentional, but I have never seen an intentional call made in this situation. If the foul seemed "overly aggressive" and the player was not making a play on the ball, I feel an intentional foul would be warrented. My guess is that the place would go balistic.... Any pointers on this one??

Rock'n Ref

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Rock'nRef
If the foul seemed "overly aggressive" and the player was not making a play on the ball, I feel an intentional foul would be warrented. My guess is that the place would go balistic.... Any pointers on this one??

Rock'n Ref

Yeah. Make the right call. Who cares how the place "goes"? If games were decided on how a majority of the fans in the gym feel, we wouldn't even have to play them.