Call it or not??

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Ummm, you would pass on an obvious foul like that? That could cause problems. I agree if it is a light tap, but a slap????

Why is it an obvious foul if no advantage was gained? By rule, a necessary aspect for a foul here is an advantage.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why is it an obvious foul if no advantage was gained? By rule, a necessary aspect for a foul here is an advantage.

I think you need to read this and think about you options:

SECTION 19 FOUL
A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized.

ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I think you need to read this and think about you options:

SECTION 19 FOUL
A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized.

ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

hey I refu2 nice of you to highlight the text that helps your argument, but if you are really looking for the correct answer you should also note that in the next part of the sentence is says and I quote "which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements". That is what Snaqwells was pointing out and it is a valid point....

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by cmathews

hey I refu2 nice of you to highlight the text that helps your argument, but if you are really looking for the correct answer you should also note that in the next part of the sentence is says and I quote "which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements". That is what Snaqwells was pointing out and it is a valid point....

His point may be valid in a sence, but the last time I checked, a slap on the arm is a foul. If not, then we need to move to the football forum.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

His point may be valid in a sence, but the last time I checked, a slap on the arm is a foul. If not, then we need to move to the football forum.

My question is what rule says a "slap on the arm is a foul." If you think there's advantage, then call a foul. But if there's no advantage, then you generally don't have a foul. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they're situational exceptions.

As Junker noted, you probably need to call it at the JH level, especially if you sense the players are testing the limits, but I'd say there are times when it could be let go even at this level.

My point is it's not an "obvious foul", as written. It's definitely not "borderline intentional" unless you think he was aiming for the arm.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My question is what rule says a "slap on the arm is a foul."

10-6-1: A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip, or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics. He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.

It is not too much of a stretch for a slap to be considered a rough tactic, is it?

The line in red is in pretty simple language, is it not? I'm all for the principal of advantage/disadvantage, but there are limits: A1 and B1 are fighting for position in the lane. As A2 takes a shot, B1 shoves A1 out of bounds. the shot is good, so there is no rebound. What advantage did B1 gain? This is still a foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-6-1: A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip, or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics. He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.

It is not too much of a stretch for a slap to be considered a rough tactic, is it?

The line in red is in pretty simple language, is it not? I'm all for the principal of advantage/disadvantage, but there are limits: A1 and B1 are fighting for position in the lane. As A2 takes a shot, B1 shoves A1 out of bounds. the shot is good, so there is no rebound. What advantage did B1 gain? This is still a foul.

This tells me who is responsible for the contact. It's not a foul without some sort of advantage. Now, let me add this, if the slap is hard enough to be considered "rough tactics," I'll call it. With a slap, though, it can be relatively light and still come out pretty loud.

With your play, I've got an advantage gained. If A1 gets shoved out of bounds, then he starts off the ensuing play at a disadvantage. As far as I'm concerned, displacement is almost always an advantage.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

His point may be valid in a sence, but the last time I checked, a slap on the arm is a foul. If not, then we need to move to the football forum.

Advantage/disadvantage. I don't care if it's a slap or not. If it's an unnecessary game interrupter, I'm letting it go. I haven't worked a JH game in some time, though, so maybe at that level....

[Junker]

The leagues I work in don't want this "nickel dime" nickel dime stuff called. It didn't affect anything so why stop play? If the ball gets loose I might call it but that's about the only time. If the coach doesn't like it, I'll just assure him he'll get the same treatment on the other side and we'll move on. If he wants to make a bigger issue of it, I'll just address that if it comes about.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Junker

The leagues I work in don't want this "nickel dime" nickel dime stuff called. It didn't affect anything so why stop play? If the ball gets loose I might call it but that's about the only time.

I agree with you but we need to consider this portion of the OP's post: ...and getting more physical as time went on...

Maybe the atmosphere of the game called for a "nickle/dime" call to help clean things up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I agree with you but we need to consider this portion of the OP's post: ...and getting more physical as time went on...

Maybe the atmosphere of the game called for a "nickle/dime" call to help clean things up.

Good point.That comes with experience sometimes....when to call something like this.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Good point.That comes with experience sometimes....when to call something like this.

I agree with this. If it's getting a little physical it might be a good one to take, but I'd rather get something else like a push on the block or during a rebound.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree with this. If it's getting a little physical it might be a good one to take, but I'd rather get something else like a push on the block or during a rebound.

And that falls under the category of "whatever works", as long as it does work. Can't knock the end result imo.