Free Throw Violation - Did We Do This Right?

[walter]

Three person crew. A1 drives to the basket, begins throwing motion, gets fouled, ball goes in. Prior to ball being at disposal of A1 for her free throw, team B requests and is granted a time out. At first horn, both benches notified that first horn has sounded. At second horn, Team A is on the floor and ready to resume play but Team B is still in their huddle. After waiting a couple of seconds, and checking with his two partners, the administering (lead) official bounces ball to A1 leaving both underneath lane spaces unoccupied. A1 misses. The lead official sounds his whistle and calls a violation on B and awards a substitute free throw. Team B breaks their huddle but is non-chalantly walking to position. Mt partner waits for Team B players to occupy the bottom spaces and play proceeds on. At halftime, coach of team A wants to know why we didn't "T" team B for delay. We explained that the first time is a violation and if Team B did it a sedond time it would be a "T". I don't have my books with me but I'm pretty sure we got this right and there's a casebook play that is pretty close. What do you think?

[rockyroad]

Rule 8-1-1...sounds like you did it right...

[mick]

Originally posted by walter
Three person crew. A1 drives to the basket, begins throwing motion, gets fouled, ball goes in. Prior to ball being at disposal of A1 for her free throw, team B requests and is granted a time out. At first horn, both benches notified that first horn has sounded. At second horn, Team A is on the floor and ready to resume play but Team B is still in their huddle. After waiting a couple of seconds, and checking with his two partners, the administering (lead) official bounces ball to A1 leaving both underneath lane spaces unoccupied. A1 misses. The lead official sounds his whistle and calls a violation on B and awards a substitute free throw. Team B breaks their huddle but is non-chalantly walking to position. Mt partner waits for Team B players to occupy the bottom spaces and play proceeds on. At halftime, coach of team A wants to know why we didn't "T" team B for delay. We explained that the first time is a violation and if Team B did it a sedond time it would be a "T". I don't have my books with me but I'm pretty sure we got this right and there's a casebook play that is pretty close. What do you think?

walter,
If this was an antagonistic act by Team B, then I would have not problem doing what they did, but I would want to be sure the "warning buzzer notification" was given to the huddle as a minimum.
I initially give Team B a lot of leeway, at first, before administering the free throw, or before I put the ball on the floor for a throw-in. One of us would go back and remind Team B that were are ready to go. The Trail is right there. Say something. Don't look for boogers.
I would want to know that the delay was an overt display, and not just an innocent act.

mick

[rockyroad]

Another preventative type thing is to use that whistle...a good long blast from the Lead will bring usually bring them a-running...

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

walter,
If this was an antagonistic act by Team B, then I would have not problem doing what they did, but I would want to be sure the "warning buzzer notification" was given to the huddle as a minimum.
I initially give Team B a lot of leeway, at first, before administering the free throw, or before I put the ball on the floor for a throw-in. One of us would go back and remind Team B that were are ready to go. The Trail is right there. Say something. Don't look for boogers.
I would want to know that the delay was an overt display, and not just an innocent act.

mick

I agree, try to get them out & into the game. This is
pretty simple if the FT misses. But let's say that B
refuses to come out of their huddle, even after
we ask politely ("Coach, we need you out here now please."
"Sorry ref, we ain't moving.") and the ball goes in. Now
what? Do we need to beckon B into the game? I'm not
talking about subs, I mean team B. Obviously if subs are
coming in for B it gets even uglier. What do you think?

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I agree, try to get them out & into the game. This is
pretty simple if the FT misses. But let's say that B
refuses to come out of their huddle, even after
we ask politely ("Coach, we need you out here now please."
"Sorry ref, we ain't moving.") and the ball goes in. Now
what? Do we need to beckon B into the game? I'm not
talking about subs, I mean team B. Obviously if subs are
coming in for B it gets even uglier. What do you think?

Dan,
Then I would yell to my partner(s), "He doesn't want to come out! Put it in play!"
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Dan,
Then I would yell to my partner(s), "He doesn't want to come out! Put it in play!"
mick

Yes, so would I. I guess I wasn't so clear in my post.
The question is what happens if, while B is in their huddle,
A1 makes the FT? Do we need to beckon B back into the game?
Can we keep subs out?

[walter]

Originally posted by mick

If this was an antagonistic act by Team B, then I would have not problem doing what they did, but I would want to be sure the "warning buzzer notification" was given to the huddle as a minimum. I initially give Team B a lot of leeway, at first, before administering the free throw, or before I put the ball on the floor for a throw-in. One of us would go back and remind Team B that were are ready to go. The Trail is right there. Say something. Don't look for boogers. I would want to know that the delay was an overt display, and not just an innocent act.

[/B]

At the first horn, our association is stressing that we inform the benches that the first horn has sounded. They want us to put the ball in play at the second horn. Now if the teams are breaking huddles and coming back on the floor when the second horn blows, obviously we will delay putting the ball in play. However, if there is no attempt to resume play (i.e. team still in huddle or on the bench), our association wants the ball in play. Generally I agree with Mick's statement. However, our asscoaition does not and that's who assigns the games.

[mick]

Originally posted by walter

At the first horn, our association is stressing that we inform the benches that the first horn has sounded. They want us to put the ball in play at the second horn. Now if the teams are breaking huddles and coming back on the floor when the second horn blows, obviously we will delay putting the ball in play. However, if there is no attempt to resume play (i.e. team still in huddle or on the bench), our association wants the ball in play. Generally I agree with Mick's statement. However, our asscoaition does not and that's who assigns the games.

[/B]

walter,
If my association wanted it that way, then no problem.
If, however, we go to page 9. "Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation.", I think we realize the rule is there for reasons other than, "Let's get this over."

An association that is being firm about that rule should make it clear to the schools, and it's membership, how the rule will be enforced.
In your case, it would seem that Team B was trying to aggravate the officials, or that Team B did know they were causing a problem. If Team B did it purposely, it would be a rare act.

mick

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Yes, so would I. I guess I wasn't so clear in my post.
The question is what happens if, while B is in their huddle,
A1 makes the FT? Do we need to beckon B back into the game?
Can we keep subs out?

Made free throw > beckon subs
Missed free throw > A rebounds and scores > 5 seconds.
On and on and on....

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick


Made free throw > beckon subs
Missed free throw > A rebounds and scores > 5 seconds.
On and on and on....

Sigh. I'll try again.

Given: a player earns a T if he enters
the game wihtout being beckoned, or if he enters late.
So, in this case, team B is in the huddle, A1 is at the
line to shoot 1. If A1 misses the 1 we have a FT violation
and B gets another chance to occupy the lowest postition
on the FT lane, otherwise it's a T. If A1 makes it (and
here's the question) must team B wait to be beckoned
before coming in? B has no subs, it's the same 5 who were
on the foor when the foul occured originally.

[Fox40]

This is one of those situations that you have to be present to make a judgment. My crew is an experienced crew and we like to do as much preventative officating as possible. The trail official on free throws at the second horn would break up the huddle and give a verbal warning that the ball will be placed in play on the next delay out of the huddle. We would then wait for the the team to occupy the lane. The next delay would result in blowing the whistle and placing the ball on the floor and begin the 5 sec. count on a dead ball throw-in. If after the verbal warning Team B still delays for a free throw by shooting team A (by not having the blocks filled) would result in a technical.
We also give a verbal warning (such as holding both arms straight out with palms up saying "Coach, I have heard enough!" to coaches before assessing a technical as part of our preventative officiating. A coach typically knows when he is going to get rung up. As an added note, I usually wait until his team has control of the ball before "sticking him/her" with a T.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Sigh. I'll try again.

Given: a player earns a T if he enters
the game wihtout being beckoned, or if he enters late.
So, in this case, team B is in the huddle, A1 is at the
line to shoot 1. If A1 misses the 1 we have a FT violation
and B gets another chance to occupy the lowest postition
on the FT lane, otherwise it's a T. If A1 makes it (and
here's the question) must team B wait to be beckoned
before coming in? B has no subs, it's the same 5 who were
on the foor when the foul occured originally.

Of course not. In fact, team B can take the floor at any time during this process. They just can't move into a lane space, or below the FT line extended, or below the three-point line while the FT is in process. It's just as if only the two lower spaces were occupied -- the other players can be on the court and be moving around (in a non-disconcerting manner).

Once the FT is over, players may change spots, etc. This is true evenif B failed to occupy the first two spots on the first FT. Let them occupy it now, if they want to.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Sigh. I'll try again.

... If A1 makes it (and
here's the question) must team B wait to be beckoned
before coming in? B has no subs, it's the same 5 who were
on the foor when the foul occured originally.

Sparky,
No, but if they don't, I've gotta go see what the problem is.
In your case there is more to it than meets the eye.
Have another brownie.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick


Sparky,
No, but if they don't, I've gotta go see what the problem is.
In your case there is more to it than meets the eye.
Have another brownie.

Another brownie! or maybe better (BTW gave up the
brownies a while ago, I will have another vodka rocks,
thanks, stick a lemon peel in there would ya?)

Anyway, just trying to see where this thread would go, I
didn't think I would have such a hard time explaining
myself. Bob J nailed it.