Throw-in/Backcourt violation?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kycat1

And you both would be wrong!!!

Might as well put me down for being wrong too, along with the others.

[Grail]

I have to ask, though it says THE team not in control, which team is in control? The definitions say that there is no team contol during a throw in, and if there is no Team control, there can be no Player Control, so...

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Grail

I have to ask, though it says THE team not in control, which team is in control? The definitions say that there is no team contol during a throw in, and if there is no Team control, there can be no Player Control, so...

I think what some may have miss is that. Although, there is not team control during a throw in or try for goal. What we have is a live loose ball. The try has ended and according to the play it was unsuccessful. Therefore, Team A was the last in control. IAW R4-12-5 player control was established when A1 lept from his frontcourt secures control of the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt. Thus, a violation.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I think what some may have miss is that. Although, there is not team control during a throw in or try for goal. What we have is a live loose ball. The try has ended and according to the play it was unsuccessful. Therefore, Team A was the last in control. IAW R4-12-5 player control was established when A1 lept from his frontcourt secures control of the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt. Thus, a violation.

The comment in bold has nothing to do with any part of this play. But the conclusion based on the rule you cited is correct.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Smitty

The comment in bold has nothing to do with any part of this play. But the conclusion based on the rule you cited is correct.

Agree !

[just another ref]

I humbly submit that this is another oversight in the specific wording in the book. When they say "the team not in control" and then list the three examples in parenthesis, it is quite possible that these were intended to be the only three cases where it applied. But, the fact is a deflection on a throw-in does not change the control status of the ball, and in this case there is no team control by either team. Therefore, I conclude it was intended that this player be allowed to catch the ball and come down in backcourt. If this ever happens, which as far as I can testify personally, never has since the beginning of time, this will be my interpretation, but if I am calling with Tony or JR, even if it is the state finals, and they call the violation right in front of me from across the court, I won't be mad.

The only angle which has not been addressed here:

Jump ball to start the game: A1 tips the ball hard straight down. It hits the floor and bounces high in the air. A2 leaps from his frontcourt, catches the ball and lands in backcourt. According to me and Nevada, this is ok. According to some esteemed members, who are older and/or wiser than us, it is a violation. Correct?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Jump ball to start the game: A1 tips the ball hard straight down. It hits the floor and bounces high in the air. A2 leaps from his frontcourt, catches the ball and lands in backcourt. According to me and Nevada, this is ok. According to some esteemed members, who are older and/or wiser than us, it is a violation. Correct?

When the ball hit the floor, the jump ball ended. Therefore, it is a violation.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

When the ball hit the floor, the jump ball ended. Therefore, it is a violation.

If the jumper tipped the ball then it hit the floor then it's not a violation. Rule 6-3 Art.7. no team control was ever established in the front court so this is a legal play.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If the jumper tipped the ball then it hit the floor then it's not a violation. Rule 6-3 Art.7. no team control was ever established in the front court so this is a legal play.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

When the player leaps from the FC and grabs the ball, TEAM CONTROL and FC STATUS is established. If the throw-in or the jump ball have already ended, then he cannot legally land in his BC.

There is no rule that says "Team and player control is established when a player holds or dribbles the ball WHILE TOUCHING THE FLOOR." It makes no difference whether he's airborne or not. When he possesses the ball, TC and PC are established.

Folks, I honestly don't understand why we're having difficulty grasping this principal.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Folks, I honestly don't understand why we're having difficulty grasping this principal.

I think it's because we really really want the rule to be that any player whose team doesn't have team control can secure the ball while in the air and land in the backcourt. It's easier to administer and seems more fair (to me, anyway).

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

When the player leaps from the FC and grabs the ball, TEAM CONTROL and FC STATUS is established. If the throw-in or the jump ball have already ended, then he cannot legally land in his BC.

There is no rule that says "Team and player control is established when a player holds or dribbles the ball WHILE TOUCHING THE FLOOR." It makes no difference whether he's airborne or not. When he possesses the ball, TC and PC are established.

Folks, I honestly don't understand why we're having difficulty grasping this principal.

As much as I want you to be wrong and can't seem to find it in the book. I stand corrected!!!!!

What if A1 is bringing the ball up the floor and B1 bats the ball away and while trying to recover the loose ball B1 hits it again off the floor and it goes up in the air. While it is in the air A2 jumps from the frontcourt and catches the batted ball in the air and lands in the back court. Is this a violation?

What if after the jump the ball hits the floor and the ball is batted by A2, then B2 the ball goes up in the air and A3 jumps from the frontcourt and catches the batted ball in the air and lands in the back court. Is this a violation?

It just doesn't seem like it should be because the ball never was established in the front court.

I may just be reading to much into this....

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Folks, I honestly don't understand why we're having difficulty grasping this principal [sic].

I agree with Scrapper. I don't think it's so much that people are having difficulty grasping the principle (by the way, grasping the principal is NOT recommended for officials!), it's just that there are two plausible and defensible interpretations here. I happen to agree with the BktBallRef interpretation, but I can see the validity of the alternate interpretation, too. (By the way, Nevadaref's explanation of the differences between the interpretations is as clear as can be -- a beautifully crafted post!)

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Grail

I have to ask, though it says THE team not in control, which team is in control? The definitions say that there is no team contol during a throw in, and if there is no Team control, there can be no Player Control, so...

Read the rule. "...the team not in control..." The rule says nothing about team control. On a throw-in, the thrower has control of the ball. The statement in the rule book has nothing to do with team or player control at this point. If I'm the thrower, I have control. If you are my opponent, you are a defender. If I release the ball, then my team was the last team in control. My team did NOT have team control.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Read the rule. "...the team not in control..." The rule says nothing about team control. On a throw-in, the thrower has control of the ball. The statement in the rule book has nothing to do with team or player control at this point. If I'm the thrower, I have control. If you are my opponent, you are a defender. If I release the ball, then my team was the last team in control. My team did NOT have team control.

You're kinda writing your own book now, aren't you? To play along for a minute, okay, now we're no longer talking about "team control" but we are talking about being "in control" of the ball. B1 deflects the ball, and it bounces high in the air. Now, it is quite a stretch to say anyone is "a defender," and clearly neither team is "in control."

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're kinda writing your own book now, aren't you?

No, new Mr. Grammar Guy, I'm not.

I simply understand the difference in control, team control, and player control. The rule book does not say team control, it says control.

I'm done. Argue it among yourselves all you want. I keep saying the same things over and over and it ain't sticking.

EDIT: I'll just say if the NFHS comes out next year and gives us a different interpretation, great. But until then, it seems quite clear to me what the present rule says.