No time out left, or do I

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As for whatever the scorekeeper indicates, I was taught NEVER to leave the game in the hands of the table. Plus with definite knowledge the referee can change anything in the scorebook, so it doesn't matter what the scorer says, it matters what the referee knows.

So are you saying that during a game you keep up with this kind of information yourself? # of timeouts, etc.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So are you saying that during a game you keep up with this kind of information yourself? # of timeouts, etc.

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)

Try it, and see if you like it.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)
Try it, and see if you like it.

@ two of the DI camps I went to the past summer the clinician's were big on knowing the foul totals, foul trouble players, AP, and partners whistles. Not withstanding I have worked real hard to be able to do this for the most part without thinking to much about it. I have never tried to know or keep the teams time outs. I just always assumed that the table has this covered. After this discussion I can half way see keeping it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)

Try it, and see if you like it.

If you can do it, I'm all for it. No such thing as too much information in this case, I think. But, now what if the book disagrees with you? You say A has no time outs, book says they have one. A calls time out, you say T, everybody else says no, then what?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you can do it, I'm all for it. No such thing as too much information in this case, I think. But, now what if the book disagrees with you? You say A has no time outs, book says they have one. A calls time out, you say T, everybody else says no, then what?

Well you have options. If you think you have information that is contrary to the book then you can check with the books kept by both teams, or you can check with play by play. If either of these don't work then you have to go with what the official book says. If the book is any good then they would have marked the time out's called and in what quarter, check the book.

Ultimately you will have to go with the official book if you haven't found any information that contradicts the official book.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Well you have options. If you think you have information that is contrary to the book then you can check with the books kept by both teams, or you can check with play by play. If either of these don't work then you have to go with what the official book says. If the book is any good then they would have marked the time out's called and in what quarter, check the book.

Ultimately you will have to go with the official book if you haven't found any information that contradicts the official book.

Play by play? What kind of games are we talking about here?

My idea on all this has always been is it worth my while to keep up with any of this if I have no authority to change it if I do see a mistake. Timeouts are a good example. They are writing it down. How are you keeping up? Who is more likely to make a mistake? A guy with a watch always knows what time it is.
A guy with two watches is never quite sure.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Play by play? What kind of games are we talking about here?

My idea on all this has always been is it worth my while to keep up with any of this if I have no authority to change it if I do see a mistake. Timeouts are a good example. They are writing it down. How are you keeping up? Who is more likely to make a mistake? A guy with a watch always knows what time it is.
A guy with two watches is never quite sure.

Play by play is used @ both the High school & NCAA level. Your right the official is more likely to make a mistake. The official may think that there is a mistake. He/she can check all books and even play by play. Play by play will have knowledge of when the time outs were taken.If the official can validate the mistake then he can change it. Most likely if play by play has a error then one of the other books will have it as well.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Play by play is used @ both the High school & NCAA level.

The only time I have seen a play by play during a HS game is during the state finals or the rare occasion a school has a very good media department (only one school I can think of). Even at the college level you do not see many play by play logs. You must have some really good school programs.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
Well you have options. If you think you have information that is contrary to the book then you can check with the books kept by both teams, or you can check with play by play. If either of these don't work then you have to go with what the official book says. If the book is any good then they would have marked the time out's called and in what quarter, check the book.

Ultimately you will have to go with the official book if you haven't found any information that contradicts the official book.

I don't agree.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Play by play? What kind of games are we talking about here?

My idea on all this has always been is it worth my while to keep up with any of this if I have no authority to change it if I do see a mistake. Timeouts are a good example. They are writing it down. How are you keeping up? Who is more likely to make a mistake? A guy with a watch always knows what time it is.
A guy with two watches is never quite sure.

You DO have the authority to make the changes.

The timer and scorer are there to ASSIST the referee and the umpire(s), not to dictate to them. The referee has the final say, not the official scorebook.

2-11-11 "...If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise."

If I have confidence in my count, I'm going to overrule the scorer. I'll take the responsibility upon myself. That's just me, others may not do that.

[just another ref]

2-11-11 refers to a discrepancy between two books. If you say one thing and both books agree on something else, do you still have the authority to overrule?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You DO have the authority to make the changes.

The timer and scorer are there to ASSIST the referee and the umpire(s), not to dictate to them. The referee has the final say, not the official scorebook.

2-11-11 "...If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise."

If I have confidence in my count, I'm going to overrule the scorer. I'll take the responsibility upon myself. That's just me, others may not do that.

I disagree Neva...

2-11 Art.11 Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time out....notifying the referee @ once of any discrepancy...(for there to be a discrepancy that is found the two book would have contradicting information. Something isn't matching up. )

Some of the examples that have been given were where the official called a foul on one # and the books put the foul on another #. I agree that this is the example in which you could over rule all the books if you have definite knowledge to what # the foul is on. Especially if you are the one that called the foul.(Your argument is that I reported it on # so & so and the book wrote the wrong # down.) However this is a mistake where all books reported the foul but just on the wrong #.

So if the official book and both teams books agree on the TO information and you disagree you would go ahead and allow the time out and change all the books, even no discrepancy was found? Don't see how you could ever do this....You have no verifiable information that backs up your change.( It is possible that you forgot a time out that was taken. How could you prove the change?) You might be able to get by with this @ the lower levels , maybe @ some high school games, but NEVER @ the college level.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you can do it, I'm all for it. No such thing as too much information in this case, I think. But, now what if the book disagrees with you? You say A has no time outs, book says they have one. A calls time out, you say T, everybody else says no, then what?

I had a situation a few years ago where both teams requested a TO at (about) the same time. The TO was granted to A, but the book wrote it down as B. So, when B called a TO later in the game, they were "out". Because I knew who had requested the TOs and how they had been charged, we were able to change the book to what happened and finish a close game without a s***-storm. The tape backed me up.

I always try to keep the TOs in my head.

[Ignats75]

If the Official Scorebook (or sheet in the case of an AAU Tourney) says a team has a TO left, how can a referee overrule that? If the referee has definite knowledge otherwise, proper game management would have required that official to confer with the scorer and then notify the coach. I don't see where there would ever be a problem in this case. Whether you keep track of TOs or not, I can't imagine you would tell a coach he had no timeouts left without verifying this with the table.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)

Try it, and see if you like it.

Before I swung my officiating goals to football, I was successfully implementing some of what Nevada does. It didn't take long - only 1 season to remember timeouts (sometimes including location on court when requested), team foul counts, and if star players had 4.

I echo the try it sentiment.........