No time out left, or do I

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

As a former coach of youth basketball I can tell you it is VERY EASY to lose count. Each tournament has it's own rules as to how many timeouts you get. And your scorekeeper is typically another parent who can get caught up in the game and forget to write down a timeout.

As a former youth coach I can tell you I never started a game without knowing the tournament rules (including number of TOs) and kept a close eye on the official scorer if he came from the other team. I don't know why it's so hard for a coach to make a ticky mark on a napkin every time he takes a TO, even if he is the only adult with his team.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

As a former youth coach I can tell you I never started a game without knowing the tournament rules (including number of TOs) and kept a close eye on the official scorer if he came from the other team. I don't know why it's so hard for a coach to make a ticky mark on a napkin every time he takes a TO, even if he is the only adult with his team.

You're right of course, when we're talking about a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball (I'm not saying I think you are all those things, just that I'm assuming that's what you are talking about). But that assumption gets very iffy in a lot of 9th grade ball, especially if it's girls. In the OP, I"d do just what he did, and also give the scorekeeper a little "chat" about being very careful what she says. If I heard the coach ask the scorekeeper, and the scorekeeper respond, I'd be inclined to interfere in that conversation, to be sure the info is correct.

But I'd be especially unhappy with coach A who wants his parent-book-person to be not held accountable for her error, which helps him. "Coach, you and I both know she wasn't deliberately wrong, and that she's doing the best she can to be fair to both teams. Let's you and I also adopt that attitude and let her off the hook so that she doesn't end up making you look bad." Or, "Coach, what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if she was a parent from team B, and she told you you had an extra TO that you didn't have? You'd be very unwilling to give Team B shots, eh?"

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

You're right of course, when we're talking about a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball (I'm not saying I think you are all those things, just that I'm assuming that's what you are talking about). But that assumption gets very iffy in a lot of 9th grade ball, especially if it's girls. In the OP, I"d do just what he did, and also give the scorekeeper a little "chat" about being very careful what she says. If I heard the coach ask the scorekeeper, and the scorekeeper respond, I'd be inclined to interfere in that conversation, to be sure the info is correct.

But I'd be especially unhappy with coach A who wants his parent-book-person to be not held accountable for her error, which helps him. "Coach, you and I both know she wasn't deliberately wrong, and that she's doing the best she can to be fair to both teams. Let's you and I also adopt that attitude and let her off the hook so that she doesn't end up making you look bad." Or, "Coach, what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if she was a parent from team B, and she told you you had an extra TO that you didn't have? You'd be very unwilling to give Team B shots, eh?"

If we do it my way coach B will have learned something and he or she will never, ever make this mistake again (I'm assuming even the coaches in your neighborhood are somewhat trainable). If we do it your way you are depriving coach B of a chance to actually become a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

If we do it my way coach B will have learned something and he or she will never, ever make this mistake again (I'm assuming even the coaches in your neighborhood are somewhat trainable). If we do it your way you are depriving coach B of a chance to actually become a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball.

Well, not necessarily. Those are two possible outcomes, but certainly not the only possible ones. Yea, some coaches in my area are trainable, but there are others....

At the level of ball you work, I agree with you completely. Even the 9th grade tournaments you do are composed of teams with coaches, players and parent who study the game, work at their craft and hope to keep moving up the ladder.

But you must remember back to the beginning (I think you started during the Eisenhower administration?!?) that there were some coaches who were just clueless and and equal number of scorekeepers who were the same. Those of us who flounder around in the ranks of the uninitiated have to try to be as humane as possible in working with very unskilled and uninformed folks. In this kind of situation (OP), I'll almost always get both coaches together in the hearing of the score person and let everyone off the hook the first time. Some coaches learn a little from that kind of treatment, too.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, not necessarily. Those are two possible outcomes, but certainly not the only possible ones. Yea, some coaches in my area are trainable, but there are others....

At the level of ball you work, I agree with you completely. Even the 9th grade tournaments you do are composed of teams with coaches, players and parent who study the game, work at their craft and hope to keep moving up the ladder.

But you must remember back to the beginning (I think you started during the Eisenhower administration?!?) that there were some coaches who were just clueless and and equal number of scorekeepers who were the same. Those of us who flounder around in the ranks of the uninitiated have to try to be as humane as possible in working with very unskilled and uninformed folks. In this kind of situation (OP), I'll almost always get both coaches together in the hearing of the score person and let everyone off the hook the first time. Some coaches learn a little from that kind of treatment, too.

I think what these types of coaches will learn is that when things don't go their way based on some notion of "fairness" it's the official's job to wipe their...errr...their tears, that's it, pat them on the head, give them a big hug and a cookie before bending the rules and sending them back outside to play with their friends.

Of course when he runs into some hard @ss who really doeasn't want to hear it (or even a soft touch on a less than good day) this coach will whine & cry that the other ref fixed it for him last weekend and hold his breath until he gets his cookie.

Nah, T 'em up & be done with it. When little Susie innocently asks why the other team is getting to shoot the FTs the coach will be a better person if he/she is able to simply say "because I screwed up Susie, because I screwed up".

[ATXCoach]

Dan,

For the record, if I got T'd up I would accept and understand it, because it is my responsibility to know how many timeouts (or is it times out ) I have left, even if I received bad information from the "official" scorekeeper.

If you don't mind me asking, what level do you guys officiate? You both seem to deal with the biggest a-hole coaches and players know to walk this earth that have nothing better to do then complain about what whistle you use or how you style your hair. I promise you that we are not all like that.

[Gimlet25id]

[QUOTE=ATXCoach]Dan,

For the record, if I got T'd up I would accept and understand it, because it is my responsibility to know how many timeouts (or is it times out ) I have left, even if I received bad information from the "official" scorekeeper.

Atx hit he nail on the head. It's not our responsibility to make sure that the coach's are getting correct information. If they don't want to track the info themselves and they are willing to trust the table then they should also be willing to accept the consequences. I coached for several years @ the varsity level. I NEVER, NEVER relied on the table for any info, (fouls, time outs, opposing teams fouls or time outs.) My assistants only job during the game was to make sure our book was as accurate if not better then the tables. So when I wanted info I could get it right away and I knew it was reliable.

As far as T'g the 9th grade coach. I would...for the simple fact that the coach needs to learn. The biggest part of the kids playing @ this level is to learn. The same would go for the coach's. If you did "T" this coach I guarantee he/she wouldn't rely on the table ever again. If a excessive time out is called for and the don't have one available then the rules dictate that we penalize. The book doesn't say penalize unless the received wrong info from the table. If the coach doesn't like it then in a professional manner explain that to keep it from happening again he should keep a book @ his bench.

I do not think it prevents anything. If the information is wrong, all your talking to the table is going to put you up as the one responsible

I have to disagree with JR on this. I want to know when the team only has 1 time out or if they are out all together. If I relay this info to the coach's then it helps prevent a excessive time out. Most of the time when you remind the coach that they only have 1 time out left or that they are out he/she relays that automatically to the team. As far as getting wrong info from the table...unlikly @ the varsity level on up. This level and up will almost always keep the info themselves. Now I know J'Rs going to say that if they are keeping it why remind them? Well they may not remind their team. If I say something then they more then likely will pass the info on. Never had a coach get mad for reminding them of their time out situation.

[Jimgolf]

How about assessing a penalty for giving incorrect information?

Oh wait, that's in golf.