No time out left, or do I

[Dan_ref]

Don't you think a coach should know how many TO's he has taken? (I'm guessing yes)

How difficult is it for a coach to count each TO he takes? (I'm guessing not too difficult)

Give him the T

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Don't you think a coach should know how many TO's he has taken? (I'm guessing yes)

How difficult is it for a coach to count each TO he takes? (I'm guessing not too difficult)

Give him the T

Normally, I'd say yes, the coach should know how many timeouts he has used. However, given the circumstances, with a 9th grade team and a parent of an opposing team's player giving the wrong information, I'd say the fair thing to do would be to let it go.

While team B should have their own scorekeeper tracking this, team A should also have better qualified scorekeeping personnel. Giving incorrect information like that could give the appearance of cheating, and we definitely don't want to go there.

I also might make a note of this and pass the word to tournament officials to keep an eye out for a re-occurence.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Normally, I'd say yes, the coach should know how many timeouts he has used. However, given the circumstances, with a 9th grade team and a parent of an opposing team's player giving the wrong information, I'd say the fair thing to do would be to let it go.

Jim,

It is not uncommon at a varsity game that a kid or some parent is keeping track of the team's book or official book during games. So I do not see why this is any different at the 9th grade level.

As Dan said, the coach can count. If they cannot count, shame on them. Give them a T.

Peace

[OHBBREF]

In any game if the timeout number was given out incorrectly by the table or officials I would not penalize, I would get them back on the floor now and off we go

Towards the end of the game the officals should check and see who has time outs and how many - then tell the coaches - if there is a discrepency it can be cleared up then. This eliminates any problem with so called "mis-information"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Towards the end of the game the officals should check and see who has time outs and how many - then tell the coaches - if there is a discrepency it can be cleared up then. This eliminates any problem with so called "mis-information"

This is not our job. All the rules require are that table personnel to let us know when the team has run out and then we inform the team they have used all their timeout. It is not our obligation to find out what the timeout situation is, nor is that going to automatically prevent problems. If we are told the wrong number of timeouts left, we are just going to repeat improper information. There is a reason why all rules sets want the non-official bookkeepers to be at the table.

Peace

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

In any game if the timeout number was given out incorrectly by the table or officials I would not penalize, I would get them back on the floor now and off we go

Towards the end of the game the officals should check and see who has time outs and how many - then tell the coaches - if there is a discrepency it can be cleared up then. This eliminates any problem with so called "mis-information"

Please provide a reference for your prescribed mechanic. I believe the book says that it's the official's responsibility to inform the coach when (s)he is out of timeouts.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

While team B should have their own scorekeeper tracking this, team A should also have better qualified scorekeeping personnel. Giving incorrect information like that could give the appearance of cheating, and we definitely don't want to go there.

At lower levels, who does the book could be anyone, from a parent doign their first game to an injured player or student team manager.

We have one middle school in my area that consistently has non-playing players keep their book, so when we play at their site, I take NFHS 2-11-11 very literally and ask the scorer how many fouls are on a player after each and every foul and how many time outs are left after each time out. It probably isn't foolproof, but it at least minimizes the likelihood of bad information.

As for the orginial scenario, if the official scorer tells an official a team has one time out, and then after the tean's coach calls it, informs the official, there was really zero time outs left, I'd find it difficult to whack the coach (Team-T) if they were given clearly faulty information from the official book/scorer.

[tjchamp]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Don't you think a coach should know how many TO's he has taken? (I'm guessing yes)

How difficult is it for a coach to count each TO he takes? (I'm guessing not too difficult)

Give him the T

As a former coach of youth basketball I can tell you it is VERY EASY to lose count. Each tournament has it's own rules as to how many timeouts you get. And your scorekeeper is typically another parent who can get caught up in the game and forget to write down a timeout.

The real question is what to do at a varsity game. Say his staff left the book at home so he doesn't have one. Or maybe he just lost track so he has his staff ask the bench how many TO's he has and they give him bad information. What would you do?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

As a former coach of youth basketball I can tell you it is VERY EASY to lose count. Each tournament has it's own rules as to how many timeouts you get. And your scorekeeper is typically another parent who can get caught up in the game and forget to write down a timeout.

You need to make sure you have someone that is on your team keeping track of those kinds of things. In my experience JH teams have their own scorebook and they let their coaches know what is going on with the score, timeouts or foul situations. So if you cannot get someone to do that, it is not my problem as an official that you are unaware.

Originally Posted by tjchamp

The real question is what to do at a varsity game. Say his staff left the book at home so he doesn't have one. Or maybe he just lost track so he has his staff ask the bench how many TO's he has and they give him bad information. What would you do?

I would call a T from the grade school level all the way to the college level. Part of your responsibility is a team is to keep track of these things. If you do not want to be cheated, then keep track. This is not football where official have a card in their pocket to know what the timeout situation is.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

As a former coach of youth basketball I can tell you it is VERY EASY to lose count. Each tournament has it's own rules as to how many timeouts you get. And your scorekeeper is typically another parent who can get caught up in the game and forget to write down a timeout.

As a former youth coach I can tell you I never started a game without knowing the tournament rules (including number of TOs) and kept a close eye on the official scorer if he came from the other team. I don't know why it's so hard for a coach to make a ticky mark on a napkin every time he takes a TO, even if he is the only adult with his team.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

As a former youth coach I can tell you I never started a game without knowing the tournament rules (including number of TOs) and kept a close eye on the official scorer if he came from the other team. I don't know why it's so hard for a coach to make a ticky mark on a napkin every time he takes a TO, even if he is the only adult with his team.

You're right of course, when we're talking about a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball (I'm not saying I think you are all those things, just that I'm assuming that's what you are talking about). But that assumption gets very iffy in a lot of 9th grade ball, especially if it's girls. In the OP, I"d do just what he did, and also give the scorekeeper a little "chat" about being very careful what she says. If I heard the coach ask the scorekeeper, and the scorekeeper respond, I'd be inclined to interfere in that conversation, to be sure the info is correct.

But I'd be especially unhappy with coach A who wants his parent-book-person to be not held accountable for her error, which helps him. "Coach, you and I both know she wasn't deliberately wrong, and that she's doing the best she can to be fair to both teams. Let's you and I also adopt that attitude and let her off the hook so that she doesn't end up making you look bad." Or, "Coach, what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if she was a parent from team B, and she told you you had an extra TO that you didn't have? You'd be very unwilling to give Team B shots, eh?"

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

You're right of course, when we're talking about a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball (I'm not saying I think you are all those things, just that I'm assuming that's what you are talking about). But that assumption gets very iffy in a lot of 9th grade ball, especially if it's girls. In the OP, I"d do just what he did, and also give the scorekeeper a little "chat" about being very careful what she says. If I heard the coach ask the scorekeeper, and the scorekeeper respond, I'd be inclined to interfere in that conversation, to be sure the info is correct.

But I'd be especially unhappy with coach A who wants his parent-book-person to be not held accountable for her error, which helps him. "Coach, you and I both know she wasn't deliberately wrong, and that she's doing the best she can to be fair to both teams. Let's you and I also adopt that attitude and let her off the hook so that she doesn't end up making you look bad." Or, "Coach, what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if she was a parent from team B, and she told you you had an extra TO that you didn't have? You'd be very unwilling to give Team B shots, eh?"

If we do it my way coach B will have learned something and he or she will never, ever make this mistake again (I'm assuming even the coaches in your neighborhood are somewhat trainable). If we do it your way you are depriving coach B of a chance to actually become a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

If we do it my way coach B will have learned something and he or she will never, ever make this mistake again (I'm assuming even the coaches in your neighborhood are somewhat trainable). If we do it your way you are depriving coach B of a chance to actually become a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball.

Well, not necessarily. Those are two possible outcomes, but certainly not the only possible ones. Yea, some coaches in my area are trainable, but there are others....

At the level of ball you work, I agree with you completely. Even the 9th grade tournaments you do are composed of teams with coaches, players and parent who study the game, work at their craft and hope to keep moving up the ladder.

But you must remember back to the beginning (I think you started during the Eisenhower administration?!?) that there were some coaches who were just clueless and and equal number of scorekeepers who were the same. Those of us who flounder around in the ranks of the uninitiated have to try to be as humane as possible in working with very unskilled and uninformed folks. In this kind of situation (OP), I'll almost always get both coaches together in the hearing of the score person and let everyone off the hook the first time. Some coaches learn a little from that kind of treatment, too.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, not necessarily. Those are two possible outcomes, but certainly not the only possible ones. Yea, some coaches in my area are trainable, but there are others....

At the level of ball you work, I agree with you completely. Even the 9th grade tournaments you do are composed of teams with coaches, players and parent who study the game, work at their craft and hope to keep moving up the ladder.

But you must remember back to the beginning (I think you started during the Eisenhower administration?!?) that there were some coaches who were just clueless and and equal number of scorekeepers who were the same. Those of us who flounder around in the ranks of the uninitiated have to try to be as humane as possible in working with very unskilled and uninformed folks. In this kind of situation (OP), I'll almost always get both coaches together in the hearing of the score person and let everyone off the hook the first time. Some coaches learn a little from that kind of treatment, too.

I think what these types of coaches will learn is that when things don't go their way based on some notion of "fairness" it's the official's job to wipe their...errr...their tears, that's it, pat them on the head, give them a big hug and a cookie before bending the rules and sending them back outside to play with their friends.

Of course when he runs into some hard @ss who really doeasn't want to hear it (or even a soft touch on a less than good day) this coach will whine & cry that the other ref fixed it for him last weekend and hold his breath until he gets his cookie.

Nah, T 'em up & be done with it. When little Susie innocently asks why the other team is getting to shoot the FTs the coach will be a better person if he/she is able to simply say "because I screwed up Susie, because I screwed up".

[Jimgolf]

How about assessing a penalty for giving incorrect information?

Oh wait, that's in golf.