Medical paroblems: I always ask. Do you?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Then I move quickly to the other side of the court.

We have a winner, folks. Wisest post to date.

Unless you're a fully trained MD, RN, or EMT, fuggedaboutit.

[Dan_ref]

Wow. I got both JRs to say I wrote a good post.

Is it too late to change my mind??

[ATXCoach]

I'm shocked and embarrassed at most of the responses to this post.

I think that the examples given in opposition of asking before hand are extremely unlikely. I would like to think that if some kid was lying on the court convulsing or motionless that you would stop the game immediately, regardless of what you do or don't already know about the person or how your little book tells you to handle the situation. Nobody is asking you to perform medical assistance, just to provide the opportunity for help to get there unimpeded.

I think the original poster does a great service to him or herself and the game. The argument for asking is simply to maintain the safety of all participants - don't try to turn it to anything else.

P.S. - In 10 years of coaching I've only had one situation where an injury warranted immediate attention - My player trying to save a ball going out of bounds races towards the endline stumbles head first into a brick wall. The ref raced across the baseline and caught her before she hit the ground. I'm glad some of you on this board weren't reffing that game, because she technically saved the ball and it was still live on the court, so what the ruling - play on until the ball is dead and let her lay unconscious on the floor.

P.S.S. - you do realize that you are officiating a game played by KIDS of varying ages and skill sets of whom a very rare few will ever make any money at. I know you take crap from everyone about the job you do, but don't put the rulebook ahead of the safety of the kids - which is your main task until you are reffing the pros.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

I'm shocked and embarrassed at most of the responses to this post.

II would like to think that if some kid was lying on the court convulsing or motionless that you would stop the game immediately, regardless of what you do or don't already know about the person or how your little book tells you to handle the situation. Nobody is asking you to perform medical assistance, just to provide the opportunity for help to get there unimpeded.

Well, I'm shocked and embarrassed at yout basic lack of comprehension skills, Coach.

Not one poster in this thread has ever said that they wouldn't stop the game immediately if they felt that a player was legitimately injured. The posters were saying that it wasn't their job to know anything about the medical history of individual players before the game even started.

May I suggest that you go back and re-read the posts to date, and this time try understanding what they are really saying.

[Bad Zebra]

In our litigious society, I would be very reluctant to ask the question in a pre-game conference. I think it's a matter of liability. That may sound harsh or callous, but it's a reality. I'm sure this topic has been debated by the Fed at some point and has been left out of the pre-game for very good reasons.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

I'm shocked and embarrassed at most of the responses to this post.

I think the original poster does a great service to him or herself and the game. The argument for asking is simply to maintain the safety of all participants - don't try to turn it to anything else.

P.S. - In 10 years of coaching I've only had one situation where an injury warranted immediate attention - My player trying to save a ball going out of bounds races towards the endline stumbles head first into a brick wall. The ref raced across the baseline and caught her before she hit the ground. I'm glad some of you on this board weren't reffing that game, because she technically saved the ball and it was still live on the court, so what the ruling - play on until the ball is dead and let her lay unconscious on the floor.

As JR said, you really need to go back and actually read what many of us said. I was one of the first that said this was not our job. All I was talking about is that I am not trained in any kind of medical field that if a player passed out or had a seizure, I would have no idea what to do or what was necessary. This is why even during summer game there is a trainer or some person with medical training to help for anywhere from minor to serious ailments.

Also you are assuming that most of us here only work with kids. Many of us work games with adults. I have worked many college games and I can tell you many college programs have more training staff on them than officials on the field. Also I work football where the violence in the sport is much more than most basketball games will ever get. The minute a kid falls, there are 4 or 5 people trained in a football game to take care of that kids needs. I was at a college camp this summer and there was a kid that had a seizure (no medical history from all accounts) and I was lost as to what to do. Fortunately the college that ran the team camp had medical personnel to take care of this kid and do what was medically correct. It was funny because there was a fellow official at this camp that works in a hospital as an administrator and some of the comments that were coming from fans and observers to handle this kid's seizure would have been wrong according to this official who is not a doctor or trained in the medical profession. But he was around enough situations to have very basic knowledge of what to do and helped bring some medical equipment that was helpful to the trainer that was on staff at the moment of this kid's seizure. If we listen to you, we might have harmed this kid and caused a problem that we would have been liable for.

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

P.S.S. - you do realize that you are officiating a game played by KIDS of varying ages and skill sets of whom a very rare few will ever make any money at. I know you take crap from everyone about the job you do, but don't put the rulebook ahead of the safety of the kids - which is your main task until you are reffing the pros.

Once again you need to go back and read what we said. YOU need to understand that it is not the rulebook that is the issue. It is the fact that if we went to college or were trained in a particular profession, most of us has never been to any kind of medical profession. I think you need to do better reading to know what we said and taking our comments in context instead of telling us what is more important.

Peace

[ATXCoach]

I now understand that probably a greater number of you ref college games than I initially thought and my comments were directed towards junior high and high school games. (yes I know I said "pros", that was a bad choice of words)

JRutledge - You said I didn't read what you were all saying and that you are not trained in providing medical attention. When you copied my comments you just so happened to do a little selective pasting and cut out this paragraph . . .

I think that the examples given in opposition of asking before hand are extremely unlikely. I would like to think that if some kid was lying on the court convulsing or motionless that you would stop the game immediately, regardless of what you do or don't already know about the person or how your little book tells you to handle the situation. Nobody is asking you to perform medical assistance, just to provide the opportunity for help to get there unimpeded.

Jurassic - I read posts where the poster said they would blow the whistle and then hide on the other side of the gym (which you seconded) - not in my job description, not my problem! That's what shocks me and that's what I think some of the posters are "really saying".

Truth be told I bet if put in that situation, 99% of the people that read this board would do everything in their power to help, if that meant getting a towel to holding down a kids shoulders so they don't see there leg bent 90 degrees the wrong way. That's why reading some of the "harsh and callous" comments were so shocking.

Sorry JRs, I just think that from tip off to the final horn, anything and everything that you can do in and around the court to insure the safety of the participants is your job. I know you got a lot to do during the games, but for the length of that game, you are the judge, jury, executioner, maid, traffic cop, etc. etc.

I think asking about known medical conditions is a good idea.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

Sorry JRs, I just think that from tip off to the final horn, anything and everything that you can do in and around the court to insure the safety of the participants is your job.

It is not the officials' job to insure the safety of the participants, and of course it is not the officials' "main task". Also, how exactly does the official knowing that a player is having a seizure because they have disease X make the game any safer than the official just knowing that the player is having a seizure?

[ATXCoach]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Also, how exactly does the official knowing that a player is having a seizure because they have disease X make the game any safer than the official just knowing that the player is having a seizure?

Great point. I don't think it does in the worst case seizure scenarios we keep discussing, but if we are talking asthma or deafness, I feel advanced warning will help the officials call a better and/or safer game.

I still disagree about the "not your job to insure the safety of the player" issue. Like I said, you got a ton of things to do and I think safety on the court is near the top.

[JRutledge]

ATX,

Can you reference this requirement? Can you show me one reference in any officiating book that states this is our mission?

When a kid falls out, it is very possible there are many reasons the kid fell out.

When Hank Gathers died on the floor, the family sued every doctor in sight. If there was a doctor at the game that was in the cheap seats and did not get to Hank in 2.1 seconds of him falling to the floor, they were sued.

Coach, you have no clue about officiating or responsibility of those that officiate. Your comments are the very reason why officials have little respect for many coaches. Now we are supposed to override the experience and ability of the people that are in attendance to do the very thing, but all we have to do is buy a striped shirt and that trumps medical training and licenses that states require to be a trainer at a sporting event. WOW!!!!!!

Thanks for confirming what I already know about coaches.


Peace

[ATXCoach]

JRutledge, I have NEVER said you are required to do anything in the event of a serious injury but to provide the opportunity for help to get there unimpeded.

Why do you not see that!!! Why do you keep assuming that I am asking you to preform surgery with your whistle? Please read the paragraph that you have now skipped twice in my original post.

I love this board for the knowledge that I have gained about the rules and their interpretations. I love the debates that you and officiating family have about said interpretations.

I have no knowledge of the rule book that says you need to do or not do anything when a kid gets hurt. If you can sleep at night knowing that you ran away from a kid in need, then you have LOWERED my opinion of many officials.

My concern for the safety and well being of the participants is the "very reason" that you "have little respect for many coaches." Do you realize how heartless and insensitive that makes you sound?

Generally speaking, why does it always seem like you have an us against the world attitude towards players, coaches, and fans? Your knowledge of the rules is amazing and I look forward to reading many more of your posts, but you must have really been burned somewhere in the past by a player, coach, or fan.

Anyhow, we disagree about this topic completely. I'm going back to discussing with Julie/Rainmaker the rim vs release aspects of free throws now.

Goodnight JR

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

JRutledge, I have NEVER said you are required to do anything in the event of a serious injury but to provide the opportunity for help to get there unimpeded.

Why do you not see that!!! Why do you keep assuming that I am asking you to preform surgery with your whistle? Please read the paragraph that you have now skipped twice in my original post.

"I'm shocked and embarrassed at most of the responses to this post."

"I'm glad some of you on this board weren't reffing that game, because she technically saved the ball and it was still live on the court, so what the ruling - play on until the ball is dead and let her lay unconscious on the floor."

"P.S.S. - you do realize that you are officiating a game played by KIDS of varying ages and skill sets of whom a very rare few will ever make any money at. I know you take crap from everyone about the job you do, but don't put the rulebook ahead of the safety of the kids - which is your main task until you are reffing the pros."

These are you comments word for word. The second paragraph had nothing to do with what we were talking about in this post. I do not see anywhere in this thread that someone was talking about a kid getting knocked unconsious during a play. The reference that most of us made was about not wanting to know of a previous condition because we would either not know what to do if such a condition presented itself during a game. Running into a wall is not a previous medical condition. That would be an injury based on an accident while playing a game.

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

You accused people of not being concerned with the safety of the players because they said they did not want to know of previous conditions before the game.

Could you show the quote?

I love this board for the knowledge that I have gained about the rules and their interpretations. I love the debates that you and officiating family have about said interpretations.

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

I have no knowledge of the rule book that says you need to do or not do anything when a kid gets hurt. If you can sleep at night knowing that you ran away from a kid in need, then you have LOWERED my opinion of many officials.

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

My concern for the safety and well being of the participants is the "very reason" that you "have little respect for many coaches." Do you realize how heartless and insensitive that makes you sound?

"Coach, you have no clue about officiating or responsibility of those that officiate. ,Your comments are the very reason why officials have little respect for many coaches."

This is my exact quote from the previous post. Where did I say a thing about safety in those comments? My comments are about your ignorance of the topic and your ignorance of what we were actually talking about. We were never talking about players running into a wall. We were talking about if we knew a kid had a serious condition (diabetes, heart condition, gout or a sprained finger) what we would do as an official. Take your time, go back to the beginning posts, and read them again. Then maybe you can join the conversation.

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

Generally speaking, why does it always seem like you have an us against the world attitude towards players, coaches, and fans? Your knowledge of the rules is amazing and I look forward to reading many more of your posts, but you must have really been burned somewhere in the past by a player, coach, or fan.

“Me against the world?” Dude, you really have a major reading comprehension problem. I sure hope you are not a teacher at a school. If you are no wonder our children are in big trouble in competing around the world.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

Jurassic - I read posts where the poster said they would blow the whistle and then hide on the other side of the gym (which you seconded) - not in my job description, not my problem! That's what shocks me and that's what I think some of the posters are "really saying".

Again, I am shocked at your complete and total lack of comprehension re: what people have been trying to tell you. As an official, you blow your whistle and then you get the hell out of the way of the people that have been properly trained and certified to deal with medical problems. It's that freaking simple. And knowing before-hand that someone has a medical problem is completely useless to an official because the great majority of us are not properly trained to deal with medical problems anyway. So, no matter what, if we see a player in difficulty during the game, we will immediately stop the game and get that player prompt and correct medical assistance from the people who are qualified to give that medical assistance. Not ONE official has said anything different to date in this thread.

Comprehension is a basic tool needed in discussion forums. If you want to join in an argument, at least make an effort to try and find out what the argument is actually about.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

Jurassic - I read posts where the poster said they would blow the whistle and then hide on the other side of the gym (which you seconded) - not in my job description, not my problem! That's what shocks me and that's what I think some of the posters are "really saying".

I think you're talking about me.

It appears it doesn't matter what anyone is "really saying", you're going to interpret their words any damn way you like.

Go back and reread what I said. Then come back here and apologize for mischaracterizing my position.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

I read posts where the poster said they would blow the whistle and then hide on the other side of the gym (which you seconded) - not in my job description, not my problem!

For me, the reason I get away from the injured player is not to "hide" or to give the trainer room. I do it so that I do not give the coach a chance to have a confrontation on the way to his player. It's bad enough that the player is hurt. But it would be worse to have to T the coach because he told me what a lousy job I was doing that let his player get hurt.