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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 09:30am
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3 man ?

should the lead always take the charge or block call close to the basket, new to three man, ive held my whistle a few times as the C on a block to let lead get the call.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 09:58am
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This is a good example of something that should be discussed in your pregame conference. I have worked with partners who have different ideas on how to handle the charge on a drive to the basket. Some have wanted the L to handle it as they have the best view of the defenders positioning. Some want the T (or C) to handle it if that is where the drive to the basket is coming from. But if its not discussed in the pregame, there is a higher probability of the dredded Blarge.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 10:15am
Huck Finn
 
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Here we go! Is this one of those "get it right" things?

- The Lead has half the paint and from the middle of the free-throw line to the corner
- The C has the other half of the paint
- Whoever has the play should take it to the basket which in this case should (normally) only matter between the T and L
- If the L calls across the paint, it should normally be a delayed whistle. I like to think the play should be obvious/needed and the L should wait until he/she has enough time to think "Oh sh!t" and then blow the whistle otherwise IMO there is no reason for double whistles on ordinary plays on the C's side. All of this gets clouded during fast breaks
- As far as blarge's are concerned, I pregame having a preliminary come from the L - if anyone gives one at all. If the L doesn't call across the paint and the C is on their job, there will not be a double whistle.

These are some of the things I would be thinking about and saying during a pregame although it would probably me more detailed than this.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 10:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
- Whoever has the play should take it to the basket which in this case should (normally) only matter between the T and L

- As far as blarge's are concerned, I pregame having a preliminary come from the L - if anyone gives one at all.
But there's the contradiction, Tom. You want the T to take it to the basket if it starts with the T. But then you want the preliminary to come from the L. Can't have it both ways, IMHO. That's a perfect recipe for the blarge.

If you tell the Trail to take it all the way to the basket, you have to let the Trail take that bang-bang call and make the Lead hold off on it. That's a very hard thing to do.

It used to be that everybody agreed -- if the contact happens in the L's primary, then it's the L's call. It didn't matter where the play originated. But now a lot of guys have adopted the NBA philosophy of letting a guy stay with the play all the way to the basket, if it starts in front of him.

So for me, the bottom line is exactly what Ignats said. You have to pre-game this and ask how it's going to be handled.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 10:36am
Huck Finn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
But there's the contradiction, Tom. You want the T to take it to the basket if it starts with the T. But then you want the preliminary to come from the L. Can't have it both ways, IMHO. That's a perfect recipe for the blarge.

If you tell the Trail to take it all the way to the basket, you have to let the Trail take that bang-bang call and make the Lead hold off on it. That's a very hard thing to do.

It used to be that everybody agreed -- if the contact happens in the L's primary, then it's the L's call. It didn't matter where the play originated. But now a lot of guys have adopted the NBA philosophy of letting a guy stay with the play all the way to the basket, if it starts in front of him.

So for me, the bottom line is exactly what Ignats said. You have to pre-game this and ask how it's going to be handled.
Of course you have to pregame it Chuck. However, what you said is not the NBA philosophy for a block/charge call. When was the last time you saw a NBA official call a block/charge at the hoop from the T? They don't because they have the circle, which the Trail often can't see, that determines whether it is possible to have a block charge. Plays that are fouls up high are often called by the T in a NBA game though. So there is no contradiction; a block charge is not going to happen up high so the L will normally be in a better position to officiate the play.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
However, what you said is not the NBA philosophy for a block/charge call.
Disagree completely, Tom.

Quote:
When was the last time you saw a NBA official call a block/charge at the hoop from the T?
Well, I don't watch a whole lot of NBA basketball till the playoffs, so I haven't seen it. But I've been told -- back in my USBL days -- by a former WNBA official and by a current NBA official that this is how it should be done (in the NBA).

Check out that old discussion here: Great experience

Also remember that NBA coverage areas for L and T are very different from NCAA. The RA doesn't enter into the discussion at all, b/c the Trail is officiating the primary defender. The Lead will officiate the secondary defender, which is the only person the RA applies to.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 11:10am
Huck Finn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Disagree completely, Tom.

Well, I don't watch a whole lot of NBA basketball till the playoffs, so I haven't seen it. But I've been told -- back in my USBL days -- by a former WNBA official and by a current NBA official that this is how it should be done (in the NBA).

Check out that old discussion here: Great experience

Also remember that NBA coverage areas for L and T are very different from NCAA. The RA doesn't enter into the discussion at all, b/c the Trail is officiating the primary defender. The Lead will officiate the secondary defender, which is the only person the RA applies to.
Again, when was the last time you saw a NBA official call a block/charge from the T that was in front of the L. By noting the different coverage areas you help my point - The L often has the play from beginning to end.
I respect your knowledge of the game and the people you know, but what you are saying just doesn't happen on a regular basis in the NBA.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
Again, when was the last time you saw a NBA official call a block/charge from the T that was in front of the L. By noting the different coverage areas you help my point - The L often has the play from beginning to end.
And I think this is why you don't see it a lot in the NBA. Not b/c the T is giving it up to the Lead, but b/c the Lead often has the play from the beginning anyway. But if the play starts at the top of the 3-point arc, I think the Lead is going to give the Trail first crack at that whistle. Obviously, I've never reffed at that level, but that's what I've been told by people who are at that level.

I can check with a buddy who's in the D-League to get his take, if you think it would be interesting.
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Old Thu Nov 02, 2006, 02:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
And I think this is why you don't see it a lot in the NBA. Not b/c the T is giving it up to the Lead, but b/c the Lead often has the play from the beginning anyway. But if the play starts at the top of the 3-point arc, I think the Lead is going to give the Trail first crack at that whistle. Obviously, I've never reffed at that level, but that's what I've been told by people who are at that level.

I can check with a buddy who's in the D-League to get his take, if you think it would be interesting.
That is sort of how it is pertaining to a player starting his drive from above the free throw line extended. The block/charge has to take place on the primary defender and either above the free throw line extended or just below it. Once it is at the rim it is the L's for the taking, but then again 9 times out of 10, if the play has made it to the basket it is going to be a secondary defender taking the hit. The reason for some of this philosophy is that the L is the closes one to the play and the appearance of the referee who is closer to the play taking that play to the table looks a lot better.

Just to give an example and I saw it last night in the cleveland game. If we have a rotation that is taking place and there is already some post play on the side the L is coming to and the C that is going to Trail blows a foul in the post and then there is an immediate secondary whistle by the L who is on his way over, then even though the C (going to T) blew first, they want the L taking this play to the table.
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