Rule on tights...or not

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Thank you Rut.

I just wanted to start a conversation about something I noticed one of the million times Wade was on the floor.

This is why this site is here. There are people that think this site if for topics they way they want to discuss them. Oh well, you know that already.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

JR, be honest. Before this thread, did you even know Wade or any player could possibly wear something that looked like it broke the rule but didn't? After my first post you thought I was talking about someone obviously breaking the rule and now you are insinuating you would ask a player if they are wearing tights or super-high socks? Excuse me, you said something like any experienced official would take a real good look. Applying your theory, which I realize may be a stretch, to other areas of officiating would mean any experienced official would have this whole officiating thing whipped once they gain experience. That isn't realistic.

Yes, Tom, and I'm aware that there's also things like arm sleeves that might look like they're illegal, but they're not. Well, I'll be honest and I'll also repeat again what I said above. I don't care whether it's tights, jewelry, arm sleeves, whatever, there isn't an experienced official anywhere at the high school, NCAA or NBA level that would send somebody out of a game without first looking to see whether that equipment/apparel was actually illegal or not. And, btw, I posted above to make my own point. Isn't that the purpose of this forum?

Also btw, you worded your first post of this thread as if someone might actually be wearing something illegal. In a follow-up post, you then confirmed that Wade actually was wearing something that was illegal-i.e. compression shorts that didn't come above the knee. And now you're saying above that it doesn't break a rule? Could you explain that one to me?


Also, I sureashell am not insinuating that an official should ask any player anywhere if they were wearing anything illegal, as you stated above. That would be kinda stoopid imo. What would you do if you asked and the player then says that whatever they're wearing isn't illegal? Just say "OK, nevermind"? No, you simply look at what the player is wearing, and then you decide whether it is illegal or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You guys are not understanding what I'm saying. What Dwayne Wade wore last season does not break any of the rules noted in the two posts above. That is why I included links to pictures. He is wearing compression shorts that do not come above the knee with socks that do come above the knee. While standing still and during most movement, it looks like he has on full-length tights even though he doesn't. If you watched a game with a player wearing something like Wade, what rule would you be able to tell him/her they failed to enforce?

Personally, I'd tell the official that they let Wade wear illegal compression shorts.

I understand what you're saying, Tom. You're saying that Wade wore illegal compression shorts, but you think that they're legal. Well, you're wrong above, rules-wise, Tom, when you said that Wade did not break any of the rules noted in the other posts. KajunRef cited the FED rule and the NCAA rule is fairly similar(below the pants is illegal). Iow, what Wade wore, as per your post above, is illegal under NFHS and NCAA rules. I could care less about NBA rules. Compression shorts that do not come above the knee are illegal. Compression shorts have to come above the knee to be legal.

[tomegun]

I added the pictures for just this reason; maybe you didn't bother to open them up. There are some who quoted rules to clarify and there are some who made posts that seem so serve no other purpose other than being contrary.
Wade's compression shorts in the pictures are NOT illegal. Clear your mind and understand what he is wearing and what I'm saying. He is wearing legal compression shorts and looong socks. The socks basically meet the compression shorts at the thigh, under his uniform shorts. At first glance, this breaks the rule on tights. Knowing what he is really wearing let me know, and at least a few others, that what he is wearing is NOT illegal. That is why I named the thread what I named it. It seems useless to get hung up on the name of the post. It seems even more useless to attempt to tell me something is illegal when there are pictures to which show it isn't. Talking about this isn't even why I'm here. Look past thread titles and personal agendas and you will see that there is something players can do to achieve the same look that is against the rules. It may never, ever, happen but at least there are some officials who are aware of the possibility. If I were to apply your theory to this situation I would assume you would see someone wearing something that looks like tights and automatically go up and ask them to lift their uniform shorts so you can verify they are tights and not long socks. I raise the BS flag on that. Like most of US, you would tell the player they are wearing something illegal and leave it at that.

[tomegun]

JR,

As much as you want to be right, you are WRONG! Look at this picture and tell me what rule is broken. http://hosted.ap.org/photos/S/SPANER...1932-small.jpg
The compression shorts are above the knee and it should be obvious to anyone that when he stands up normally it will look like he is wearing full-length tights.
Again, this isn't why I'm here and trust me I've been here. I appreciate the kind words from some members, but BNR and Chuck can tell you that I really haven't been gone.

[ChuckElias]

I have often wondered why tights are prohibited anyway. A team could wear long pants and that would be legal. You could even wear tights under long pants (as many referees do) and that would probably be legal. (Even if it technically would be illegal, how would anybody know?) But if you wear shorts, then the tights are illegal. This just doesn't make much sense to me.

Add to that Tom's point that there's no prohibition on the height of socks. A player could wear socks that extend so high that they end under the shorts and that would be legal. But if the tights extend down, that's illegal. Silly distinction, IMHO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

What Dwayne Wade wore last season does not break any of the rules noted in the two posts above. That is why I included links to pictures. He is wearing compression shorts that do not come above the knee with socks that do come above the knee.

I'm wrong, Tom?

Here's your exact post again.

YOU stated that Wade's compression shorts do NOT break any rules even though they do NOT come above the knee.

NFHS rule 3-5-6EXCEPTION says "Compression shorts may be worn if the length is above the knee.

Your exact typed words are shown above, Tom. Again.

Now, you tell me who's wrong? The NFHS rulebook or Tomegun.

[ChuckElias]

Why is this suddenly a pissing contest? Tom made a tiny typo. He said the tights do not come above the knee and he meant that they do not come below the knee, which is obvious if you look at the pic he posted.

The point is it looks illegal because the socks extend so high, but it's not illegal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

JR,

As much as you want to be right, you are WRONG! Look at this picture and tell me what rule is broken.

I didn't answer your post by using pictures that weren't definitive. I answered your post using your very own typed words, which I took to be definitive. Silly me! Apparently, that's wasn't too wise on my part. It looks like I shouldn't have believed what you wrote. I won't make that mistake again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Why is this suddenly a pissing contest? Tom made a tiny typo. He said the tights do not come above the knee and he meant that they do not come below the knee, which is obvious if you look at the pic he posted.

The point is it looks illegal because the socks extend so high, but it's not illegal.

No, the point is that if someone states that the compression shorts do not come above the knee, then those compression shorts are illegal, by rule. That ain't a "tiny typo", that's the difference between wearing legal and illegal apparel.

I didn't start a pissing contest. I made a post using my own observation- that I couldn't see any official not looking to see whether anything was illegal or not before sending a player out. That was my opinion and I'll stick with it, whether Tom likes it or not.

And....the point is that I also really don't have a clue whether Tom made a typo or not...and neither do you. He hasn't said so, has he? He might just not know the rule; it wouldn't be the first time. I answered using Tom's exact words. If Tom posts a completely different situation, as in wearing compression shorts that come above the knee, then my answer would be different too.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I have often wondered why tights are prohibited anyway. A team could wear long pants and that would be legal.

That's probably the key here. If the whole team were wearing tights, you might have a point. That's what the definition of uniform means in English, everyone the same. It might be interesting to see a team try to come out in something like those track skin suits and see what the official reaction would be.

How about those unitards the Australian Women's team wears? Do they meet the definition of jerseys under Fed guidelines? Are they tucked in?

[tomegun]

The whole point of this thread is the fact that it is possible to wear legal compression shorts with legal socks and look that same as someone with tights on. If I typed something that said Wade's compression shorts were below the knee, that is a typo/mistake on my part. Also, yes there have been rules that I haven't known. Silly me, I don't have to open my mouth to be contrary at every, and I mean EVERY, opportunity.

Should we make it a poll and ask how many experienced refs would:
a. Tell a player they are wearing something illegal if it looks like that have on tights
b. Ask a player to pull up their uniform shorts to see if they are wearing tights or legal compression shorts with long socks

Of course the answer would have to be based on what an "experienced" official would have done before this thread.

JR, before this post did you know that any player, at any level, wore this combination that looks like tights?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

That's probably the key here. If the whole team were wearing tights, you might have a point. That's what the definition of uniform means in English, everyone the same. It might be interesting to see a team try to come out in something like those track skin suits and see what the official reaction would be.

Then if that is true, why is it legal for players to wear different shoes and sock? So if a player wants to wear something like this, there is nothing in the rules stopping them. Even these new rules about sweatbands do not extend to these things being worn on other parts of the body. There is nothing in the rules that say it is illegal for players to wear a different length of socks. These for the most part are socks and I would allow them once I figured out they were not compression pants.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

That's probably the key here. If the whole team were wearing tights, you might have a point.

I thought I did have a point. My point was I think the rule against tights is over-officious, for lack of a better word.

Even if the whole team were wearing tights, however, they would still be illegal. If, on the other hand, one or two players were wearing pants instead of shorts, that would be legal. Strangely, there's no requirement that all the pants/shorts on a team be uniform.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And....the point is that I also really don't have a clue whether Tom made a typo or not...and neither do you.

Not to be a nudge, but yes I do. How do I know it was a typo? I looked at the picture he posted that clearly shows the compression shorts above Wade's knee and his knee exposed.