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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 12:00pm
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Question

Should "we" as fellow officials and/or labor union supporters not watch NFL games until the referees and the NFL come to an agreement? I haven't seen or heard any calls to do so by referees, though, I did hear a 10 second clip on ESPN about a semi-boycott in Philly by AFL/CIO. Just wanted to know what other referees thought of the situation.
For the record, my initial reaction was, boycott the games. Now I am kind of on the fence, in part because I feel like I may be standing alone. Am I?
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 12:14pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ibumgardner
Should "we" as fellow officials and/or labor union supporters not watch NFL games until the referees and the NFL come to an agreement? I haven't seen or heard any calls to do so by referees, though, I did hear a 10 second clip on ESPN about a semi-boycott in Philly by AFL/CIO. Just wanted to know what other referees thought of the situation.
For the record, my initial reaction was, boycott the games. Now I am kind of on the fence, in part because I feel like I may be standing alone. Am I?
Watch the games at home and don't tell anyone.
If you are checking the book for the ratings people. Put your time on the Discovery Channel.
Or, don't watch any TV and install a "closet fan".
mick
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 12:35pm
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If the local teamsters went on strike would you stop driving? If the carpenter union was on strike would you stop fixing things around your house?

The NFL guys are professionals. Yes, we get paid, but I do it more for fun, exercise, and comraderie than for the jack. I view it as no different than a union being on strike and me working in that same capacity around my house.

I don't think you can compae what we do to them. Unless you are an NBA, MLB, or NHL (including minor league) official, I feel no need to stop watching football.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 01:03pm
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Not a huge NFL fan but I watch occassional...

I say who cares. I have no respect for anyone who strikes when they get paid what they do and they have a job where many people would love to have it.

Like said above, the refs are not the stars. They can be easily replaced. I'm sure there are many people that take part in putting on the game that get paid worse and get treated worse than the officials.

Strikes in well paid professions are usually a result of people exceeding there worth but wanting more money. The supply of good officials is higher than the need, so the only way they can force a raise is to make a visible stink about it and try to get the support of other unions. They don't have any substantal reason to strike other than greed.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 01:35pm
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Camron,

The NFL Refs are not on strike. They are being locked out by their employer.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 01:50pm
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We have all experienced a lack of respect while officiating? Do you not think that there is an overall lack of respect for the NFL officials? These guys have not received a pay raise in 6 years. In that same time frame, TV contracts have gone through the roof, players salaries have rocketed, and the owners are smiling all the way to the bank. We all (probably) have experienced a lack of respect while officiating in one way or the other. Now the referees have taken a stand, and have gotten locked out. Shouldn't the referees get their share (notice I didn't say fair) of the pot? Should we not stand up with them?
If I were an aspiring NFL referee, I don't think I would cross the line. Is there more that we should do for our presumably fellow NASO officials?
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 01:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ibumgardner
We have all experienced a lack of respect while officiating? Do you not think that there is an overall lack of respect for the NFL officials? These guys have not received a pay raise in 6 years. In that same time frame, TV contracts have gone through the roof, players salaries have rocketed, and the owners are smiling all the way to the bank. We all (probably) have experienced a lack of respect while officiating in one way or the other. Now the referees have taken a stand, and have gotten locked out. Shouldn't the referees get their share (notice I didn't say fair) of the pot? Should we not stand up with them?
If I were an aspiring NFL referee, I don't think I would cross the line. Is there more that we should do for our presumably fellow NASO officials?
ibum,
You are certainly carrying a heavy load there.
I imagine the replacement officials are closer to my ilk with respect to NASO.
mick
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 02:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ibumgardner
We have all experienced a lack of respect while officiating? Do you not think that there is an overall lack of respect for the NFL officials? These guys have not received a pay raise in 6 years. In that same time frame, TV contracts have gone through the roof, players salaries have rocketed, and the owners are smiling all the way to the bank. We all (probably) have experienced a lack of respect while officiating in one way or the other. Now the referees have taken a stand, and have gotten locked out. Shouldn't the referees get their share (notice I didn't say fair) of the pot? Should we not stand up with them?
If I were an aspiring NFL referee, I don't think I would cross the line. Is there more that we should do for our presumably fellow NASO officials?
I don't know how you equate lack of respect and the money they earn. Unlike the other professional sports, the NFL made it clear their officials were not to be full-time, therefore why would they expect full-time salaries?. These guys all have other jobs, this is just a side gig for them. I don't think our game checks have increased as much as the NFL is offering in the last 6 years. 40% this year, let alone the 100% in three years the NFL is offering is probably a fair offer and more any other official is getting percentage wise. Technically it is a "lock-out", but it is not like they have a contract and the NFL is preventing them from working. There is an offer on the table and the officials refuse to sign it. I look at it this way, there are probably a lot of people who can be (in time) just as good as they are, and would do it for free or for less. Basic economic principle, the supply is greater than the demand, if they won't work for what the NFL is offering, someone else will.

Plus, I don't even want to get on the soapbox that just because the NFL is making X amount of money, they deserve a X percentage of it. They should get paid what is offered, like any other employment situaton, take it or leave it. If my boss is suddenly making 200% more would I like a raise, YES, but am I entitled to a certain amount? No. He took the risks if he wants to keep it that is his perogative.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 06:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barry C. Morris
Camron,

The NFL Refs are not on strike. They are being locked out by their employer.
True, but it is essentially a strike. They have a very generous offer and refuse to sign it. They were being offered a 40% increase this year and a total of 100% increase by 2003. That is an outrageous increase. They refused it and the NFL has responded with a 60% immediate increase and total of 120% increase by 2003. THere is talk that this one will be refused too. (All of this by a 12 member executive committee, not by the members of the union).

They argue that they should be on par with the NBA or MLB. I believe that is a silly argument.

They work a single game a week for up to 24 games per year. They have other full time careers. An NBA ref works 3+ games per week. It probably adds up to over 100 games per season. They would not be able to maintain another career with the frequency of games and the associated travel time. The NBA refs would have much more game tape available to review. NBA officials have to be in much better shape than an NFL official.

Sorry, I don't buy any comparison to other official who work many more games/hours per week for as many weeks per year. They mention offseason obligations. The NBA has those too.

I am less familiar with MLB but I bet they work even more nights per week than do the NBA refs and for a longer season too.

If I could make $40,000/yr for a part-time/weekend job in the first year (and up after that) I would be thrilled. And they are talking about rejecting this one too.

What ever is the case, it is foolish to ask for a 300% raise as they are doing. All of this in an economy where thousands of people are getting laid off each day.

Camron

[Edited by Camron Rust on Sep 6th, 2001 at 06:27 PM]
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 09:21pm
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I officiate real football (soccer, just a little joke guys), but here is what I posted on Aug. 29th, in the Football Forum on the NFL lockout:


I would like to add my two cents to the contract dispute between the NFLRA and the NFL. I come from a union background. My father was a member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters for over fifty years, and his two brothers were members of the United Steel Workers for over forty years, and I am a member of the American Federations of Teachers. I will be the first one to admit that unions are not perfect but the standard of living and the working conditions that exist in this country today are the product of unions representing the workers of America. While one does not think of the UBC, USW, and the AFT in the same breath as the NFLRA, all of them exist to make sure that its members get a fair shake from their employers. Having said that let me get to the central theme of my post.

I officiate four sports: basketball, baseball, softball, and soccer, and basketball is my serious sport and I officiate the other three sports for fun. If the NBA or WNBA officials were ever to go on strike, and I were offered a chance to officiate in place of a striker I would turn it down.

Why? Have you ever been in an officiating postion where you took a stand on principle and refused to officiate because of that position because to officiate would not be in the best interest of the profession? You were willing to lose money to take a stand on principles. But at the same time many of your brother/sisters were more than willing to take those games because of the money.

I say a pox on your family to any official who works as a scab. You have forsaken your brothers/sisters just so you could say you officiated in the NFL. We are supposed to
conduct ourselves in a professional and ethical manner. It is neither professional nor is it ethical conduct to take another person's job under such circumstances.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 09:33pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ibumgardner
Shouldn't the referees get their share (notice I didn't say fair) of the pot?
Do you think all of the actual full-time employees who work for the NFL got a 400% pay increase when the last television deal was signed? Did they even get a 100% increase? I bet not a one of them got a 40% increase.

These guys have a deal on the table. From what I've read, they're not getting any closer. I'm no union lawyer but it seems like they're asking for an awful lot. I can tell you this. If they screw around, they'll be sitting home on Sunday afternoon for the rest of their lives.

Stop watching football because of a labor dispute with the officials union? I don't think so. I don't watch Sunday football to watch the officials. I watch it to watch the players.

Good luck to each and every one of them.
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Old Thu Sep 06, 2001, 09:55pm
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I say a pox on your family to any official who works as a scab. You have forsaken your brothers/sisters just so you could say you officiated in the NFL. We are supposed to
conduct ourselves in a professional and ethical manner. It is neither professional nor is it ethical conduct to take another person's job under such circumstances.
OK, even though I disagree with what you say, you had me
until this last paragraph. You can't use professionalism
or ethics to argue someone out of taking a lucrative
job doing something he loves. Even worse, you can't
threaten someone's family (I know "a pox on" is hardly
a threat, but where I come from people have been beaten
to death over this stupid union loyalty BS) because he
is willing to take a job *you* are not willing to do at the
prevailing wage. This is nothing but simple free
market economics, as long as there are people willing to do the work at the offered wage then the offered wage is
"fair", by definition. If it wasn't then no one would
take the job, would they?
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Old Fri Sep 07, 2001, 08:30am
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Dan lighten up on the "pox" word, it was literary license.

But my orginal thought stands: anybody that worked those last round of preseason games and those that will work this weekends games are scabs and are guilty of unethical and unprofessional conduct.

Let me use a personal example to put this in perspective. About five years ago during the MichiganHSAA girls' basketball season, I was assaulted by the husband of the timer just outside the dressing room after a jr. H.S. DH. The timer had been doing a poor job. She was not starting or stopping the clock because she was too busy chatting with people around here and refused to sound warning buzzers at the appropriate times during timeouts. Since it was a jr. H.S. game there was no school administrator at the game.

Needless to say the school was upset because I pressed charges against the timer's husband. Late during the MichiganHSAA boys' season, I had a varsity game at the same school. Both games were assigned by a local officials association in Michigan that I belonged to at the time.

Two weeks before the game, the school's A.D. contacted me by telephone to tell me that he had replaced me for the varsity game. When I asked when I would see my game fee check he told me that they were not going to pay me even though I had a signed contract. The LOA' assigner had replaced me at the school's request. He did not have the intestinal fortitude to tell the A.D. to take a short walk off a short pier when the appropriate thing for him to do was to have me swap games with another official.

The LOA's stand was the school had the right to demand that I be taken off of the varsity game without compensation and that the LOA did not want to upset the school by demanding that I be compensated for the game. In fact there were at least ten officials that contacted the assigner to tell him that they were available to officate the game.

I am happy to say that the type of officials described above do not exist in most of the country. In many areas of the country officials would have told the school pay the official or you will not have any officials officiate your games. I did get paid for the game though, it took a phone call from the MichiganHSAA and the threat of a lawsuit for the school to cough up the money.

The actions of the officials and LOA above are the actions of the officials would officiate the NFL games in place of members of the NFLRA.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Fri Sep 07, 2001, 09:14am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Dan lighten up on the "pox" word, it was literary license.

OK Mark, I'm light & after I get rid of these 10 pounds
I'll be even lighter (I'll be right back, I need to open
another bag of chips)....

I'm sorry you had this happen to you and I'm glad you stuck
to your guns & got your money. We all have stories of
getting stabbed in the back by our "brother" officials.
Some get it worse than others but let's face it, this is a
cut throat business. But this is sorta off the point. You
have the right to belong to a union. You have the right to
job actions. You have the right to refuse to cross picket
lines. But you do not have the right to tell me, or anyone
else, to obey the rules of *your* club, because it serves
*your* purpose. Obviosuly you'll disagree so let's just
leave it at that. (I hope we're still friends!)
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Old Fri Sep 07, 2001, 09:16am
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Mark,

You are comparing apples to oranges on many levels.

1st - Unions do and have protected workers for many years. But let's be honest, their true intent was to protect the poor souls in the mills and factories who truly risked their lives on a daily basis for little pay. Unions helped protect my family members in the steel mills, but I find it a long stretch ( and a bit insulting) to apply that same principle to any professional official. With this new offer entry level officials will be getting paid close to $2400 for three and a half hours worth of work. I think only the very top lawyers get that hourly wage (670+ per hour). I do not think they are being taken advantage of or abused andto hide behind the union and what unions stand for is flat wrong in my opionion. It is just as bad as Pat Ewing giving us that take about "we need lots of money because we spend lots of money". I think unions have far outgrown their need in pro sports. They have free agency, they have million dollar average salaries, time to bring them back in line with the rest of the world in my opinion.

And to call "replacement" officials scabs is a bit much I think. There is no contract, so they are not keeping anyone out of a job. As one will find with basic economics, they are wiling to work for the offered wage, while the current ones are not. This is called perfect elasticity of supply. Either you take it or leave it, and the current group has chosen to leave it. Revel in our market economy actually working.

2nd - Why are you mad at other officials trying to fill an opening in HS ball? It is not their fault the spot was open, they were just tryign to fill it. I am sure some had greedy intent, but others might have been open and wanted to fill that day. Your beef was and should have been with the school and assignor. The other officials should not be looked down upon in this case, they are not the ones who acted unethically the school and assignor were the one out of line.

BTW - Are you going to enlighten us as to why you got popped by the timers hubby?
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