Backcourt violation?

[ChuckElias]

Ok, here's a play that someone mentioned to me and I wanted opinions. A1 is holding the ball in his frontcourt near the midcourt line. The referee is standing nearby and is straddling the midcourt line; one foot in the frontcourt, one foot in the backcourt. A1 pivots and steps on the ref's "frontcourt" foot.

Is this a backcourt violation, just as if the official were straddling the OOB line? I think so.

But here's the tricky twist. What if we change it so that it's not the referee straddling the line, but another player instead? Is it still a backcourt violation? Because now, the OOB analogy doesn't work. It's not a violation to touch another player who is OOB while holding the ball. In that case, it's only a violation for the ball to touch the player who is OOB. So is it a backcourt violation to touch a player who is in the backcourt while holding the ball?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Ok, here's a play that someone mentioned to me and I wanted opinions. A1 is holding the ball in his frontcourt near the midcourt line. The referee is standing nearby and is straddling the midcourt line; one foot in the frontcourt, one foot in the backcourt. A1 pivots and steps on the ref's "frontcourt" foot.

Is this a backcourt violation, just as if the official were straddling the OOB line? I think so.

But here's the tricky twist. What if we change it so that it's not the referee straddling the line, but another player instead? Is it still a backcourt violation? Because now, the OOB analogy doesn't work. It's not a violation to touch another player who is OOB while holding the ball. In that case, it's only a violation for the ball to touch the player who is OOB. So is it a backcourt violation to touch a player who is in the backcourt while holding the ball?

I'm not calling B/C violation on either one.

The second one is easy for the reason you said. It isn't an out-of-bounds on a player for touching an out-of-bounds player so it would seem logical that it would apply to B/C as well.

The second is is tougher, but I don't see where the rulebook says that an official who is straddling the H/C line is in B/C. An official isn't a player so I don't think player location applies.

[rockyroad]

The official is part of the court...so if they step on my frontcourt foot, that's part of the frontcourt. No b/c call there...now, depending on how heavy the player is and how good a stomp they get on my little piggies, I might just go ahead and blow the whistle really loud right in their ear just to pay them back, but that would be an inadvertant whistle and they'd get the ball back...

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

I'm not penalizing a kid because I'm stupid enough to be out of position.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The official is part of the court...so if they step on my frontcourt foot, that's part of the frontcourt. No b/c call there.

I'm with Rocky. Sounds logical to me...and it can also be defended(vaguely) by rule, if necessary.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

[QUOTE=rockyroad]The official is part of the court...QUOTE]

Which court is the official part of...if the official landed stadling the line, did he lift his backcourt foot...or maybe his frontcourt foot...or maybe he was dribbling at the time, in which case we should determine whether all three points entered the frontcourt...of course he could have come from OB, which further complicates things...

[crazy voyager]

I have played in a game, it was decided simply. With 6 seconds left we threw a long pass to do a fast break. THe official steps in the way, gets the ball on him and it goes OOB. Other teams ball, we lose by one.

Officals can surley be out of position

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

Officals can surley be out of position

Yes, they can. But don't call me Shirley.

[rockyroad]

[QUOTE=Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The official is part of the court...QUOTE]

Which court is the official part of...if the official landed stadling the line, did he lift his backcourt foot...or maybe his frontcourt foot...or maybe he was dribbling at the time, in which case we should determine whether all three points entered the frontcourt...of course he could have come from OB, which further complicates things...

Well, if the official in question is M&M Guy then we would have to make sure that all SIX point were across half-court...his two legs and the 4 legs of the walker he uses!!

Budump-bump ching!!

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Well, if the official in question is M&M Guy then we would have to make sure that all SIX point were across half-court...his two legs and the 4 legs of the walker he uses!!

You'd have to use the Seven-Point rule if the official was Ron Jeremy.

Wait a minute.....

The rule only references things that touch the floor. Seven feet in the air doesn't count.

Nevermind.....

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Well, if the official in question is M&M Guy then we would have to make sure that all SIX point were across half-court...his two legs and the 4 legs of the walker he uses!!

Budump-bump ching!!

Hey!

When I finally catch up to you I'm gonna stick one of those walker legs up your...er...hmm...in your case would it be down your...

Oh, never mind.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by zebraman

The second one is easy ...The second is is tougher...

I concur with this analysis.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I concur with this analysis.

Hey give me a break. That was prior to 6 AM in my time zone and I hadn't even had my first cup of coffee at work yet!

[Nevadaref]

Chuck,
This case book play was a recent unannouced change. JR pointed it out a couple of seasons ago. If you follow its logic, then both of the plays you inquired about are legal.


7.1.1 SITUATION A: A1, while holding the ball inbounds near the sideline, touches (a) player B1; (b) a photographer; (c) a coach; (d) an official, all of whom are out of bounds. RULING: A1 is not out of bounds in (a), (b), (c) or (d). To be out of bounds, A1 must touch the floor or some object on or outside a boundary line. People are not considered to be objects and play continues. Inadvertently touching someone who is out of bounds, without gaining an advantage, is not considered a violation.

[BillyMac]

Nevadaref:

Thanks for pointing out this unannounced change. I noticed this last year while preparing for our Board #6 Refresher Exam. If I recall correctly, previously a player, while holding the ball inbounds, was allowed to touch a player who was out of bounds, without being called for an out of bounds violation. Of course player excluded coaches and referees (not sure about substitutes), which meant that previously, if said player contacted a coach or referee who was out of bounds, said player would be deemed out of bounds.

I hate it when the NFHS makes changes without listed them on their annual rule changes list. For someone who has been refereeing for as long as me, the changes are more difficult to remember than the rules themselves, so it helps when the NFHS highlights changes every year.

By the way, it was me, through my Board #6 interpreter, who brought attention to the NFHS a few years ago about the deletion of the "captain's line up" rule when several subsitutes enter the game at the same time. A coach had seen a request for a line up in a freshman game that he had been observing. He asked me if there was such a rule, to which I replied that there was. When I went to the rule book to find the citation, I couldn't find it, so I figured it was one of those unannounced changes. After questioning my interpreter, he discovered that the rule had been inadvertently left out a few years before, which continued for several years, until the coach noticed it and brought it to my attention. It's back in the book now.

You would think that with all it's resources, including proofreaders and checkers, that the NFHS would be able to prevent unannounced changes and deletions. Go figure.