Disqualified player question...

[Sirrefalot]

Newer official here, third year. Player a1 picks up 5th foul. Teams are lined up to shoot free throws when horn sounds and score table informs officials that it is the 5th foul on a1. Official notifies coach, and player and instructs table to begin 30 second clock. Player a1 runs off court, gets drink and sits down (all the while the coach is in a stare down at me). Question is, does it matter that the player left the court? he called his players over for a time out and insisted that he had a minute (even though i told him 30 seconds). Should i be concerned about anything other than he should have his player in before the 30 seconds?

[IUgrad92]

I wouldn't be concerned with anything else. Sounds like the official notified the proper individuals and got the clock started. That's really the important thing. Get that 30 seconds going.........game management.

I would though, at the 15 second mark, notify the coach that he has 15 seconds, don't let there be any gray area to him how much time he has left. When the horn sounds and you don't see a player moving towards the table to check in, then I would say you are more than within your rights to hit him with a technical.

When a player fouls out, focus on getting that replacement on the floor so you can get the game going again. Game management is very important.

[BktBallRef]

#1, it's not a timeout. He can bring his players over but nobody else, except the 4 players and the HC coach can stand. Mr. Asst. Coach, sit down!

#2, tell the timer to give you 30 seconds. You should get a horn at 20 and a horn at 30. When the horn sounds at 30 and there's no sub, WHACK.

[Dan_ref]

What Tony said.

When you are told B1 is DQ'ed tell coach then point to the table and loudly say "gimme 30 seconds, horn at 20" (20 seconds if under ncaa). Then let Coach B stare until the horn, turn to him, smile & politely ask where his muthafugin sub is...and btw as soon as his sub is pushed towards the table walk away and start the game up again.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

What Tony said.

When you are told B1 is DQ'ed tell coach then point to the table and loudly say "gimme 30 seconds, horn at 20" (20 seconds if under ncaa). Then let Coach B stare until the horn, turn to him, smile & politely ask where his muthafugin sub is...and btw as soon as his sub is pushed towards the table walk away and start the game up again.

I dunno Dan...early in my career I would probably have just stood there and been "showed up"(and IMO, that is what the coach is doing)...but now, I gotta tell ya...I'm not so sure I would take it.

I would probably walk over to the coach and ask him if he liked my "outfit" or something. I would stand there and engage in a conversation that would either get him back to coaching (I think that is what coaches are suppose to do) or get him back to communicating with me without his unsportsmanlike conduct and playing to the crowd.

Now...if his communicating with me becomes unsporting...then I have something more tangible than staring to "work with".

Don't get me wrong...I don't want to "bait him" (even though some might say he is baiting me with the staring)...I want to "educate him" in the proper ways to handle our obvious communication break-down. If he is a quick learner...then we can be on our way with no further problems...if not, well, it's his choice.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I would though, at the 15 second mark, notify the coach that he has 15 seconds, don't let there be any gray area to him how much time he has left. When the horn sounds and you don't see a player moving towards the table to check in, then I would say you are more than within your rights to hit him with a technical.

When a player fouls out, focus on getting that replacement on the floor so you can get the game going again. Game management is very important.

Game management doesn't mean making substitutions. That's the coach's job, not yours. Do not notify the coach that he has 15 seconds left. Ever! If you forget to do that with that coach again, he'll be wondering where his warning was. Just keep away from him and let him do his job.

Btw, the rule states that it's a "T" if the sub isn't at the table when the horn goes, not on the way to the table. If the sub is just on the way, it's supposed to be an automatic direct "T" charged to the head coach. NFHS casebook play 10.5.3SitB(c).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

I would probably walk over to the coach and ask him if he liked my "outfit" or something. I would stand there and engage in a conversation that would either get him back to coaching (I think that is what coaches are suppose to do) or get him back to communicating with me without his unsportsmanlike conduct and playing to the crowd.

Dude, if you do that, you're sinking to the coach's level imo. If all he's doing is staring, who cares? He'd better have a sub AT the bench when that 30-second horn goes though. He sure doesn't deserve a break if he's wasted his 30 seconds staring at you.

When a coach is thoroughly pissed off at you, all of the game-management skills in the world ain't gonna change his mind. Let him play his little games and ,hopefully, get it out of his system. If not, then nail him if you have to. Sometimes, they want that "T".

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

I dunno Dan...early in my career I would probably have just stood there and been "showed up"(and IMO, that is what the coach is doing)...but now, I gotta tell ya...I'm not so sure I would take it.

I would probably walk over to the coach and ask him if he liked my "outfit" or something. I would stand there and engage in a conversation that would either get him back to coaching (I think that is what coaches are suppose to do) or get him back to communicating with me without his unsportsmanlike conduct and playing to the crowd.

Now...if his communicating with me becomes unsporting...then I have something more tangible than staring to "work with".

Don't get me wrong...I don't want to "bait him" (even though some might say he is baiting me with the staring)...I want to "educate him" in the proper ways to handle our obvious communication break-down. If he is a quick learner...then we can be on our way with no further problems...if not, well, it's his choice.

I neither want to bait or educate, and I for sure am not worried about being "showed up", 'cause I got a million and one ways to get him back. Let him stare all he wants in this case (I just know Chuck's gonna find that thread where we argued staring). He gets 20 seconds or 10seconds depending on the rules and that is it, after the that the game is going to start again. But I can see how the staring deal is annoying. I've used your approach (walk over while asking "Say coach, I couldn't help that you're looking at me...is there something I can help you with?") but it aint worth it to me any more. You wanna stare? Go ahead, it don't mean sh1t to me.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

(I just know Chuck's gonna find that thread where we argued staring).

Nah. You all know how I feel about it. Staring is not T-worthy. Get the sub within 30 seconds and keep going. That's just my opinion, of course.

[Brad]

If the sub is just on the way, it's supposed to be an automatic direct "T" charged to the head coach. NFHS casebook play 10.5.3SitB(c).

I wouldn't split hairs on this one - you are just asking for trouble. If the sub is on his way, just have him enter and get the game going.

I would tell the coach he has 30 seconds. If he insists that he has a minute, my response is going to be, "Coach, by rule you have 30 seconds for a sub." Then I'll turn and ask the table to start the 30 seconds and let me know when I have 10 seconds left.

At 10 seconds I'm going to tell the coach, "Coach, I need a sub now please."

I don't ask the table to use the horn - that is probably a personal preference thing... I want to be in control of the situation and I don't want the other coach making an issue if the sub wasn't right in front of the table when the 2nd horn goes off.

This method has worked for me and I haven't had to give a technical for a substitution since my 1st or 2nd year (when I didn't inform the coach that he had 10 seconds left).

The others are right too that it is not a time-out -- the 4 players that are still on the court can stand at the side of the court, but everyone else remains seated.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Brad

1) I wouldn't split hairs on this one - you are just asking for trouble. If the sub is on his way, just have him enter and get the game going.

2) I don't ask the table to use the horn - that is probably a personal preference thing... I want to be in control of the situation and I don't want the other coach making an issue if the sub wasn't right in front of the table when the 2nd horn goes off.

1) Agree... that's exactly why I said "supposed to" instead of "should". But that ain't definitive either. If a coach wants to spend 30 seconds staring at me, and then decide to go about getting his sub up to the table after the second horn goes, well....too bad for the coach. I ain't cutting him a break under those conditions. That was my point.

2) Disagree completely with that one. The rule book call for a horn- in all rulesets. The rule is in there for a reason; the reason being that neither team gets an advantage by taking a longer time than allowed. Hell, doing it your way, I could see some coaches informing their home timer to give 'em a minute instead of 30 seconds....and I certainly can see some home timers following their coach's direction. Do you also not get the official timer to time TO's, intermissions, etc. either? There's really no difference. Jmo, but if a coach knows that he'd better get a sub up to the table rather than staring at an official, you'd get a heckuva lot less staring.

[Brad]

No -- I do use the timer to time the clock and actually I misspoke -- I will get them to give me the first horn. However, I'll handle the expiration of time myself.

I know what the rule says, but I have been given this advice in pre-games with veteran officials that work a lot of games... If it works for them, it'll work for me

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Brad

No -- I do use the timer to time the clock and actually I misspoke -- I will get them to give me the first horn. However, I'll handle the expiration of time myself.

I know what the rule says, but I have been given this advice in pre-games with veteran officials that work a lot of games... If it works for them, it'll work for me

I get the feeling that we both kinda agree on this one from the git-go anyway. I'm not handing out "T"s to a kid that's a few steps from the table either.

You don't look for the "T", but sometimes it's forced on you though.

[Brad]

I agree... I think that the philosophy is that WE want to be in control of the situation and not let a timer / other coach be in control.

Think about the situation where you have a DQed player on the visiting team... You certainly could have a timer that is eager to blow that 2nd horn and then tell you (or have the home coach tell you) that you must call a technical now.

We want to avoid all technicals in the game where possible - especially administrative ones. We have to let them call themselves.

I think that giving a T when the sub is running up to the table is like a cop giving you a ticket for going 31 in a 30.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Brad

I think that giving a T when the sub is running up to the table is like a cop giving you a ticket for going 31 in a 30.

Or putting the ball on the floor and starting a 5-second resuming-play count when the throwing team has already broken the huddle and is walking towards you. I had a partner do that once.

Too many major problems can occur to bother sweating the small ones. Unless, of course, it's an ABS call.