Incidental contact

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The couple guys I know that work D1 have told me that they call a foul on the defender when the dribbler's feet get clipped by an opponent running nearby.

This is the same thing I hear from guys who work in the ACC. And when I attend camps where ACC refs are observing I always make that call. And I lean towards making that call in my JuCo games.

However, in my HS games I am more apt to pass on the play if I feel the defender did nothing wrong.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

This is the same thing I hear from guys who work in the ACC. And when I attend camps where ACC refs are observing I always make that call. And I lean towards making that call in my JuCo games.

However, in my HS games I am more apt to pass on the play if I feel the defender did nothing wrong.

In the women's college game they want this called on the defense.

[REFVA]

By the explanation of the poster, I would not have called it. Yet I can only imagine the defender was probably riding the offensive player and mostly likely the contact might have not been incidental. Yet keep in mind incidental contact if the offense was not put at a disadvantage. which in this case it sound like the offense lost the ball. I would have liked to see the play, Positioning as always means a lot. seeing from different angles will defenitely give you a better call.

Originally Posted by REFVA

By the explanation of the poster, I would not have called it. Yet I can only imagine the defender was probably riding the offensive player and mostly likely the contact might have not been incidental. Yet keep in mind incidental contact if the offense was not put at a disadvantage. which in this case it sound like the offense lost the ball. I would have liked to see the play, Positioning as always means a lot. seeing from different angles will defenitely give you a better call.

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

I do agree with a previous poster who said its much easier to explain the foul than the no-call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

As noted here, the penalty for not calling this a foul is two shots and the ball at the division line.

[btaylor64]

Gentlemen I don't post here to argue, and I barely post to debate a topic, nor do I post anything that is my own personal opinion. Everything I post I have taken from some very high level officials, and I assume that to be the best you have to learn from the best and that is just what I am doing and trying to express here.

Jurassic Referee I understand what you are meaning in replying to my post. I believe you are saying that almost always is too much and that I'm saying that a trip or tangle of feet is always a foul. I am not saying that and I shouldn't have used 99% as how much I call this. I agree 100% with you about each play having its own merit and should be judged as such, but like someone said earlier it is a whole lot easier to sell a trip foul than to no call a trip foul. Are there going to be plays where two players are next to each other and the offensive player just trips themselves? Sure there are, and that is why you have to have a high level of concentration at all times.


MPLAHE,

From the play you described, I have a tripping foul. Don't try to think too hard into the defender having LGP and therefore leaving the onus on the dribbler. they are both side by side meaning that the offensive player has his head and shoulders past the defender. If the kids' feet get tangled up don't be afraid to blow the whistle. I would much rather go to the team of the defensive player's coach and tell him I blew it rather than going to the irate offensive team's coach and trying to sell him that I got the call right or even go over and tell him I missed it because he is going to tell you yeah he and everybody else saw that you missed it too. Whack!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

1) Everything I post I have taken from some very high level officials, and I assume that to be the best you have to learn from the best and that is just what I am doing and trying to express here.

2) Jurassic Referee I understand what you are meaning in replying to my post. I believe you are saying that almost always is too much and that I'm saying that a trip or tangle of feet is always a foul. I am not saying that and I shouldn't have used 99% as how much I call this. I agree 100% with you about each play having its own merit and should be judged as such, but like someone said earlier it is a whole lot easier to sell a trip foul than to no call a trip foul. Are there going to be plays where two players are next to each other and the offensive player just trips themselves? Sure there are, and that is why you have to have a high level of concentration at all times.

1) Btaylor, saying that "very high level officials" agree with your personal stance is the oldest posting ploy in the world. Your philosophy/opinion should stand on it's merits, and imo this particular philosophy/opinion of your's is meritless- "very high level officials" notwithstanding. We disagree philosophically. It's that simple. Btw, I know a lot of "very high level officials" too. I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night also. It's true, it's true.....

2) Personally, I really don't worry about selling anything. I worry about getting the call/no call right. If I know that I've made the right call, I could care less what any coach thinks of it. Any call that goes against their team is wrong from the git-go anyway. Jmo, but it might behoove you to stop worrying so much about what the coaches think when you make a call or ignore incidental contact. If you're looking for approval, you're in the wrong racket.

Again, jmo. Don't take it personally.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

As described, I have a foul on the defense in this play.

Regarding the percentages posted earlier -- I think that when this play happens in the "open court" it usually is a foul on the defense. When the offensive player drives to the hoop (especially when s/he's "out of control"), the likelihood of it being a foul goes down.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by MPLAHE

Here is what I observed. the offensive player was dribbling up the right side of the court just entering the frontcourt. I was the trail coming up just behind the play. The defender was running alongside on the left and really not making a play on the ball when the their feet brushed together and the offensive player stumbled and lost the ball. I explained to the quite upset coach of the offense that it was incidental contact. He told me if the offensive player is tripped, it has to be a foul. I disagreed - he said I was clueless - his opponents got to shoot two foul shots.

I do agree with a previous poster who said its much easier to explain the foul than the no-call.

The correct call is a foul on B1 for this play. B1 didn't have LGP so is responsible for any contact that leads to an advantage.

BTW, I normally have a foul on a defender lying on the ground who inadvertently trips up an opponent with the ball.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

The correct call is a foul on B1 for this play. B1 didn't have LGP so is responsible for any contact that leads to an advantage.

Sometimes I'm a smart-@ss, but this is an honest question. How do we know whether B1 had LGP or not? The play doesn't tell us that. All the play says is that they were running side-by-side.

All you have to do to establish LGP is to have both feet on the floor and be facing your opponent. Once you've done that, you can move any direction (including straight up) and maintain that LGP. As long as B1 is not moving towards A1 when their feet tangle, B1 has done nothing wrong (assuming LGP was established -- two feet on the floor and facing A1 -- prior to the contact).

It may look ugly and clumsy, but if B1 established that LGP and isn't moving toward A1, you cannot (by rule) have a foul on B1.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Sometimes I'm a smart-@ss, but this is an honest question. How do we know whether B1 had LGP or not? The play doesn't tell us that. All the play says is that they were running side-by-side.

Because the OP didn't say he had LGP, he just said B1 & A1 was running side by side. Just using the facts at hand.

Even if he HAD said B1 established LGP the way I envision this play is that A1 at some point had head & shoulders past B1.

Even if he HAD said B1 maintained LGP the way I envision this play B1 moved into A1.

So the only way B1 had LGP during the contact was that B1 established it, he didn't let A1 get head & shoulders past him & B1 did not move into A1 to initiate contact.