Setting ball down

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Under certain conditions, I sureasheck would give a coach a "T" for that. If the coach did that deliberately to distract an opponent, and it worked....or if the coach did something that directly causes a turnover, as in the situation above, I'm gonna call it every time. Imo, it's unsporting and unethical behavior on the coach's part to try and gain an unfair advantage with unsporting actions like that.

Now, what would you do in those situations?

The rulebook of course says if deem unsporting and unethical, then a "t" must be given to the coach. As for me, since this is a rare situation, I would probably judge the coach's behavior according to the level of basketball. If this was a grade school game (3rd, 4th, 5th, and even 6th grader), then I'll probably nail him with a "t". But since we are talking about high school ball here, the player must have been really impaired or dumb to listen to the opponent's coach and actually giving him the ball. Come on now, the player must take some responsibilities for his action for turning the ball over.

Fans in the stands often scream "shoot the ball" or say words deliberately to create an advantage for their team. When we hear it, do we always penalize the fans for such action? Even when we do decide to penalize the fans, we would probably do this once in every so many times that we hear it. So what constitute the referees for penalizing the coach and not the fans if both people were to say the same thing? And why is it that a defender can scream "dead" or "ball" when the dribble is dead and what makes that sporting vs. "give me the ball" or "shoot the ball" as unsporting? I am interested to know what you guys think.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

1) But since we are talking about high school ball here, the player must have been really impaired or dumb to listen to the opponent's coach and actually giving him the ball. Come on now, the player must take some responsibilities for his action for turning the ball over.

2) Fans in the stands often scream "shoot the ball" or say words deliberately to create an advantage for their team. When we hear it, do we always penalize the fans for such action? Even when we do decide to penalize the fans, we would probably do this once in every so many times that we hear it. So what constitute the referees for penalizing the coach and not the fans if both people were to say the same thing?

3)And why is it that a defender can scream "dead" or "ball" when the dribble is dead and what makes that sporting vs. "give me the ball" or "shoot the ball" as unsporting?

1) Well, personally I really don't care if the player is impaired or dumb. That's got no relevancy at all imo when it comes to judging this play. As an official, all I'm worried about is whether I'm letting a coach and his team benefit from from an unsporting act in some way. If that unsporting act caused an opponent's turnover, then that coach and his team sureasheck are benefiting from that unsporting act imo. I won't let a coach get away with gaining an unfair advantage like that. Apparently you would. Guess we're gonna have to disagree on this one...big time.

2) Whatintheheck has the fans got to do with this play? Apples and oranges. The actions of the fans are completely irrelevant when it comes to judging whether a coach's actions are unsporting or not.....which is what the officials have to do in this case. If the fans do interfere with the play, then I'm also gonna take care of it, using the recommended way in the case book.

3) Players shouting "dead" or "shoot" aren't unsporting acts; it's that simple. Any official with any kind of experience at all knows the difference.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

3) Players shouting "dead" or "shoot" aren't unsporting acts; it's that simple. Any official with any kind of experience at all knows the difference.

In general, I agree. However, I whacked a bench player this summer for shouting, "3!!.... 2!.... 1!... ." as the opposing team (losing badly) was trying to set up for a last shot play. Bench player did it once, I glared at her, then she did it again! I whacked her. Coach tried to say it was the name of their play, "3-2-1, because that's how the players are set up on the floor" I said, "Okay then the T is for having six players on the floor." He said, "We dont have six players on the floor!" I said, "So how could they set up as 3-2-1?" He was still scratching his head over that one as the players were all leaving the gym. Gotta admit, I thought it was one of the lamest excuses I'd ever heard.

[mick]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Bench player did it once, I glared at her, then she did it again! I whacked her.

I don't think I could have done that.

If I didn't like the player counting down, I imagine I would have said something to her coach. The use of the "glare" would probably not be understood unless the player was my kid, unless the player knew me very well.

mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by mick

I don't think I could have done that.

If I didn't like the player counting down, I imagine I would have said something to her coach. The use of the "glare" would probably not be understood unless the player was my kid, unless the player knew me very well.

mick

I don't think so either.

Just let it go IMO. 3...2...1... was probably yelled from the bench 10 minutes after the first peach basket got nailed up to a wall.

Oh and as for the original post...ignore it. As someone else said it's much better than running the score up, as usually happens.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

In general, I agree. However, I whacked a bench player this summer for shouting, "3!!.... 2!.... 1!... ." as the opposing team (losing badly) was trying to set up for a last shot play. Bench player did it once, I glared at her, then she did it again! I whacked her. Coach tried to say it was the name of their play, "3-2-1, because that's how the players are set up on the floor" I said, "Okay then the T is for having six players on the floor." He said, "We dont have six players on the floor!" I said, "So how could they set up as 3-2-1?" He was still scratching his head over that one as the players were all leaving the gym. Gotta admit, I thought it was one of the lamest excuses I'd ever heard.

If the game is a blow out in the last couple of seconds why would you want to prolong it by giving a "T" and then having to admin. it, seems pointless.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree...

If I were that coach, I'd have my players keep playing but with restrictions on how they can play that will actually benefit them...such as:

• only dribble with weaker hand
• Long range shooters can only shoot layups
• Inside players can only shoot outside of 15'
• Layups can only be with the weaker han
• Everyone must touch the ball before a shot is allowed
• Don't allow them to dribble...passes only

A couple of years back, a HS GV team I was involved with played my alma mater, whose team was not very strong. The second time we played them, coach put in some similar restrictions for the second half:
* 10 passes before shooting -- We still scored at will, which led to:
* Layup attempts only
* And on defense, all players had to stay inside the 3 point arc.

We still won big, and shot 9 for 11 in the second half (1 missed layup and a missed 3-pointer), but at least we didn't rub it in, so to speak.

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Well, personally I really don't care if the player is impaired or dumb. That's got no relevancy at all imo when it comes to judging this play. As an official, all I'm worried about is whether I'm letting a coach and his team benefit from from an unsporting act in some way. If that unsporting act caused an opponent's turnover, then that coach and his team sureasheck are benefiting from that unsporting act imo. I won't let a coach get away with gaining an unfair advantage like that. Apparently you would. Guess we're gonna have to disagree on this one...big time.

-ohh come on now, we all know different games require different types of officiating. The player with the ball must have been extremely dumb if he/she listens to the opponent coach and give him the ball. Where's the game awareness? Is he even playing basketball? Why’s he paying attention to the coach? If those were the things I question - is he playing basketball? By having a low basketball IQ, they are putting themselves in a very bad position to expect a call that they caused to lose. IMO, why should they be rewarded for their own mistake?

Here's a scenario I think it can be measured similarly. Is this an acceptable play by the defender?

A5, facing his own basketball rebound the ball and on his way down he hears a shout down court that screams, "THROW ME THE BALL." A5, who is now in full control of the ball, thought one of his teammates was open for a fast break opportunity. A5 quickly pivot and throw the ball down court, and the pass is intercepted by B4. Every person at the gym knows B4 shout “THROW ME THE BALL” except for A5. But A5 committed the play. Can you still panelize B4 for saying “throw me the ball?” Or better yet give him a “t” for quote and quote “creating an advantage on the court?” If so, then why? If not, why not?

Basketball is never fair. As an official, it is critical to enforce all of the rules and make sure the game flow smoothly. If a coach creates an advantage for his team (like spilling water to cause a player to fall, struck his foot out, throw things on the court, etc), then sure heck we gotta nail him. But the degree of creating an 'advantage' must be measured. As stated in the previous post, if they were in grade school, because of the talent of basketball, we can and should enforce something to prohibit the coach from doing it again. After all, for the grade school level is still about learning to sport of basketball. For this particular scenario, it is to me that a “bonehead” play was made by the offensive team. I just cannot see what the coach did wrong in terms of creating an advantage and thus deserving a “t.

3) Players shouting "dead" or "shoot" aren't unsporting acts; it's that simple. Any official with any kind of experience at all knows the difference. [/QUOTE]

I know, I know – those are some words that can be said in the written rule of basketball. Now I also want to point this out. What if the entire team (all 5 players on the court) mumbles “dead” or “ball” while the ball is being dribbled? After a minute or two, it must get irritating – can it? I am interest to know what action you would take for this particular scenario?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

-[I]ohh come on now, we all know different games require different types of officiating. The player with the ball must have been extremely dumb if he/she listens to the opponent coach and give him the ball. Where's the game awareness? Is he even playing basketball? Why’s he paying attention to the coach? If those were the things I question - is he playing basketball? By having a low basketball IQ, they are putting themselves in a very bad position to expect a call that they caused to lose. IMO, why should they be rewarded for their own mistake?

Here's a scenario I think it can be measured similarly. Is this an acceptable play by the defender?

A5, facing his own basketball rebound the ball and on his way down he hears a shout down court that screams, "THROW ME THE BALL." A5, who is now in full control of the ball, thought one of his teammates was open for a fast break opportunity. A5 quickly pivot and throw the ball down court, and the pass is intercepted by B4. Every person at the gym knows B4 shout “THROW ME THE BALL” except for A5. But A5 committed the play. Can you still panelize B4 for saying “throw me the ball?” Or better yet give him a “t” for quote and quote “creating an advantage on the court?” If so, then why? If not, why not?

Basketball is never fair. As an official, it is critical to enforce all of the rules and make sure the game flow smoothly. If a coach creates an advantage for his team (like spilling water to cause a player to fall, struck his foot out, throw things on the court, etc), then sure heck we gotta nail him. But the degree of creating an 'advantage' must be measured. As stated in the previous post, if they were in grade school, because of the talent of basketball, we can and should enforce something to prohibit the coach from doing it again. After all, for the grade school level is still about learning to sport of basketball. For this particular scenario, it is to me that a “bonehead” play was made by the offensive team. I just cannot see what the coach did wrong in terms of creating an advantage and thus deserving a “t.

3) Players shouting "dead" or "shoot" aren't unsporting acts; it's that simple. Any official with any kind of experience at all knows the difference.

Different games may require different types of officiating, but you should still be consistent and fair in all games, no matter what. Basketball may never be fair to you, but as an official, I'm gonna do my damndest to keep my games fair.

Are you ever gonna post anything that's relevant to the original situation? You're judging a coach's actions, not completely different scenarios concerning players on the floor. And howinthehell can you say you're gonna enforce all of the rules when your advocating above to not enforce all of the rules equally? Do you really only make calls in favor of "smart" ballplayers, but refuse to make the same call if you feel a player is dumb? Lah me.....

Jmo, but advising that an official should make a call dependant on whether that official feels that the player is dumb or not is inherently dumb in itself. Letting the coach commit an unsporting act and rationalizing away your refusal to penalize that unsporting act by blaming the recipient of the unsporting act is also just completely dumb imo.

As I said, we disagree completely on this particular philosophy. You don't feel that the coach's actions are unsporting; I do.

[JRutledge]

I am not even sure why this is even a heated discussion on any level. If you feel like a T is the only way you can handle this situation, then T everyone up to make you happy. If you feel nothing illegal has been done, then leave it alone. My expectations are very different in a JH game as compared to a college game. Also summer games have a different expectation then a regular season game. This is why it is called judgment. We never have to agree because we all will not have the same scrutiny on this issue because we do not all work for the same people.

Peace

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Different games may require different types of officiating, but you should still be consistent and fair in all games, no matter what. Basketball may never be fair to you, but as an official, I'm gonna do my damndest to keep my games fair.

Are you ever gonna post anything that's relevant to the original situation? You're judging a coach's actions, not completely different scenarios concerning players on the floor. And howinthehell can you say you're gonna enforce all of the rules when your advocating above to not enforce all of the rules equally? Do you really only make calls in favor of "smart" ballplayers, but refuse to make the same call if you feel a player is dumb? Lah me.....

Jmo, but advising that an official should make a call dependant on whether that official feels that the player is dumb or not is inherently dumb in itself. Letting the coach commit an unsporting act and rationalizing away your refusal to penalize that unsporting act by blaming the recipient of the unsporting act is also just completely dumb imo.

As I said, we disagree completely on this particular philosophy. You don't feel that the coach's actions are unsporting; I do.

You're right - I don't feel the coach's action as unsporting, and you do. Just different p.o.v. - it seems that you're defending the game of basketball and the players far more than what they can really handle. We are put on the court to manage the game and ensure the game flows smoothly, and not to bail anyone's mistake.

My point I'm getting across is that same words can be said by two different people at the same time in the same game. Why do we weigh the coach's word more than the players if the outcome is the same? I can see we shouldn't compare a fan's action vs. a coach's. But for a player vs. a coach, their verbage (words they say on and off the court) should be treated the same..... I just don't see how it is "fair" to the coach if the players are allow to say it and not them. I only wish playing defense was that easy - "PASS ME THE BALL." "TWEET, 't'"!!!

[Dan_ref]

[blindmanwalking]

I'm with Jurassic Ref on this one. A coach has no business trying to influence the play of the other team by interacting with them in any way. If this is allowed, it could lead to other more serious problems later in the game. I'll bet the opposing coach won't take it lightly, nor should he. Kids are taught to respect and listen to other coaches/adults so an attempt to trick a player by a coach is definately un-sportsmanlike.