Pre Game

[zebraman]

Official's personal philosophies are influenced by experiences that have happened to them. When our state first started doing 3-person, I thought that straying out of our primary and secondary areas to help a partner a little bit now and then was acceptable. I don't believe that anymore.

About halfway thought that first season of 3-person, I was working a closely-contested game with two veteran partners. The partner working the trail position at the time is top notch and has worked a 4A state championship. My L is solid, but not a guy I'd want to work a huge game with. So I'm C with a couple of players in my area but they aren't being competitive with each other at all. So I stray and watch the drive out of the T's area instead of getting myself into rebounding position as I should. A jumble of players get in between the T and A1 so he has no view of the shot. A shot is taken right in front of the L, just outside the key on the side opposite me. I see a fair amount of contact on the arm by B1 from my C position. The L has no whistle. I hesitate and then come in to take the call. No problems and we shoot 2.

Later in the game, I realize that my partner (who was the L in the sitch I just mentioned) is getting questioned on almost every call by the coaches. Even the routine ones. Why? Because I took away his credibility by taking a call right in front of him. Even if my call was correct, I just told everyone in the gym (and especially the coaches) that I did not trust my partner.

What would be better for the game..... allowing that contact to go uncalled or making the "right call" and taking away my partner's credibility like I did?

I should NOT have made that call and I apologized to him for it after the game.

Z

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Official's personal philosophies are influenced by experiences that have happened to them. When our state first started doing 3-person, I thought that straying out of our primary and secondary areas to help a partner a little bit now and then was acceptable. I don't believe that anymore.

About halfway thought that first season of 3-person, I was working a closely-contested game with two veteran partners. The partner working the trail position at the time is top notch and has worked a 4A state championship. My L is solid, but not a guy I'd want to work a huge game with. So I'm C with a couple of players in my area but they aren't being competitive with each other at all. So I stray and watch the drive out of the T's area instead of getting myself into rebounding position as I should. A jumble of players get in between the T and A1 so he has no view of the shot. A shot is taken right in front of the L, just outside the key on the side opposite me. I see a fair amount of contact on the arm by B1 from my C position. The L has no whistle. I hesitate and then come in to take the call. No problems and we shoot 2.

Later in the game, I realize that my partner (who was the L in the sitch I just mentioned) is getting questioned on almost every call by the coaches. Even the routine ones. Why? Because I took away his credibility by taking a call right in front of him. Even if my call was correct, I just told everyone in the gym (and especially the coaches) that I did not trust my partner.

What would be better for the game..... allowing that contact to go uncalled or making the "right call" and taking away my partner's credibility like I did?

I should NOT have made that call and I apologized to him for it after the game.

Z

I tend to disagree with you, you made the right call because the game comes first. If what you wrote is correct this official doesn't have any credibility if you make that call or not. If you don't make that call the coaches still get on him and now they get on the entire crew for not seeing the obvious foul. The problem was not with you making the call but with a lead not making the call. The lead and trail should just thank you for picking up the call. We are a team out there.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by RonRef

I tend to disagree with you, you made the right call because the game comes first. If what you wrote is correct this official doesn't have any credibility if you make that call or not. If you don't make that call the coaches still get on him and now they get on the entire crew for not seeing the obvious foul. The problem was not with you making the call but with a lead not making the call. The lead and trail should just thank you for picking up the call. We are a team out there.

And team members trust each other. I cut my partner's legs out from under him by taking his call. Since it was right in front of him, maybe he had a better angle than I did and maybe it was a call that could have been passed on.

That partner is pretty solid. Not the best official every, but certainly competent. He could have handled a conversation with a coach about why he did not make the call. I took that chance away from him.

The problem was me straying out of my coverage area. I was wrong. The game would have been better of without me putting air in my whistle in that situation.

Z

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by zebraman

And team members trust each other. I cut my partner's legs out from under him by taking his call. Since it was right in front of him, maybe he had a better angle than I did and maybe it was a call that could have been passed on.

That partner is pretty solid. Not the best official every, but certainly competent. He could have handled a conversation with a coach about why he did not make the call. I took that chance away from him.

The problem was me straying out of my coverage area. I was wrong. The game would have been better of without me putting air in my whistle in that situation.

Z

When you talked to him after the game what did he say that he saw? Was the foul marginal or was it a foul you thought you saw? I have worked games when I am the lead and there is a drive from the wing and there is contact right in front of me on the backside and I can't see a thing because the play blows up on you and the Trail comes in with a great help call. The play was three feet in front of me and an officials from 20 feet with a better look comes in and gets the call.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by RonRef

When you talked to him after the game what did he say that he saw? Was the foul marginal or was it a foul you thought you saw? I have worked games when I am the lead and there is a drive from the wing and there is contact right in front of me on the backside and I can't see a thing because the play blows up on you and the Trail comes in with a great help call. The play was three feet in front of me and an officials from 20 feet with a better look comes in and gets the call.

He said what any official in that situation would probably say, "hey, no problem." It's been a few years ago, but I don't think he remembered the play when I brought it up after the game.

The contact was a hit on the arm. Not a major slap, but enough that I was sure it affected the shot. But since it was right in front of him, maybe I didn't see what I thought I saw. Maybe he saw the entire play and thought that it didn't affect the shot. Or maybe he thought the contact occurred after the shot was gone.

The point is that I had no business looking there and I caused a problem by reffing out of my area and conveying to everyone that my partner wasn't completely trusted by the crew. Bad Zebraman!

In the play you referred to above, the foul that happened in front of you is the trail's call (any drive out of the T or C's area going right to the hoop is theirs to take all the way). And plays in front of you might often be in the T's secondary coverage area too. The C has no business looking outside the far lane line.

Z

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by zebraman

He said what any official in that situation would probably say, "hey, no problem." It's been a few years ago, but I don't think he remembered the play when I brought it up after the game.

The contact was a hit on the arm. Not a major slap, but enough that I was sure it affected the shot. But since it was right in front of him, maybe I didn't see what I thought I saw. Maybe he saw the entire play and thought that it didn't affect the shot. Or maybe he thought the contact occurred after the shot was gone.

The point is that I had no business looking there and I caused a problem by reffing out of my area and conveying to everyone that my partner wasn't completely trusted by the crew. Bad Zebraman!

In the play you referred to above, the foul that happened in front of you is the trail's call (any drive out of the T or C's area going right to the hoop is theirs to take all the way). And plays in front of you might often be in the T's secondary coverage area too. The C has no business looking outside the far lane line.

Z

The reason I brought up the play from the wing is that the coaches just see that the call is right in front of the Lead and the Trail is making the call, they don't know coverage areas!

[ChuckElias]

We've been down this road before. Any remember the thread "How far will you go to save a game?" ?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by RonRef

The reason I brought up the play from the wing is that the coaches just see that the call is right in front of the Lead and the Trail is making the call, they don't know coverage areas!

A good trail will close in on that call and it will be believable. I don't think a C is going to run through all the players in the key to try to make a cross-court call believable.

There is a reason that each position has primary and secondary coverage areas. You own your primary area. You help out in your secondary area. You stay out of the other areas because you have partners who have much better looks at those plays.

Z

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

What would be better for the game..... allowing that contact to go uncalled or making the "right call" and taking away my partner's credibility like I did?

Z

Ok, let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. Are you 100% sure the coaches were on your partner solely because you made that call in his area? Or could it be because he was "solid, but not a guy I'd want to work a huge game with", iow, the weakest guy on the crew? Could there have been other small things that happened during the game that let the coaches think they could question his calls? Have you talked to those coaches since that game, and have they told you that was the case?

I certainly agree with the philosophy on staying in your area. I think it's been proven many times that calls made outside an official's area are more likely to be wrong. However, I'm not sure I would pass on a call that I'm sure happened, and I'm sure my partner didn't pass on it but just missed it, even if it was outside my area. If the issue is credibility, how do you explain to a coach that you saw the foul, but just didn't call it solely because it was not in your area? I would think that would lower your credibilty as a crew much more than making a correct call that your partner missed. I'm just not convinced coaches are smart enough, or thinking about that during a game. I would think they are picking up on more than just that one call to start questioning the rest of your partner's calls.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. Are you 100% sure the coaches were on your partner solely because you made that call in his area?

Yep. I've worked many games with him and never had any problems with coaches "picking on him." His calls are good, he just isn't the greatest game manager ever. He has good "presence" and is believable. When I made that call, it appeared as if I did not trust that partner. I can remember the whole play vividily.

Z