Pre Game

[BOBBYMO]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I agree that "never" is too restrictive. There are times when an official's primary or secondary coverage area might be in front of a partner. That being said, I think Dave Dow's evaluator probably meant that you should not call a travel that is right in front of your partner when it is not in your primary or secondary coverage area. And I agree (with the exception of an occasional sub-varsity game when I am helping train a brand new official who needs my help in his/her area).

The assignors I work for expect an official to be able to call an obvious travel in their own area. In the end-of-game situation that you bring up, they would want to know why the responsible official missed the obvious travel. They would not want the other two officials ball watching out of their areas.

My assignors expect the other two officials to trust their partners and watch their own areas. What's the point of having 3 officials on the floor if we are all watching the same thing? Who is watching the other 8 players?

Calling a travel that is out of your primary or secondary coverage area is a great way to expose yourself as a ball watcher.

Z

If you make a travel call right in front of me late in the game when the games on the line and its a travel that I got blocked out of for some reason.............................. I am going to say thanks!!!!

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

If you make a travel call right in front of me late in the game when the games on the line and its a travel that I got blocked out of for some reason.............................. I am going to say thanks!!!!

Bobbymo,

You won't get the chance to thank me. If that isn't my primary or secondary coverage area, I won't be looking there. I trust you as my partner. My assignor wouldn't have put you on that big game with me if you weren't capable. You will get yourself into position and make that call.

If the travel happens in my secondary coverage area, I'll help you out if it's an obvious travel that you missed. But if it's that obvious, we need to talk after the game about why you didn't get yourself into good position to make that obvious call at a crucial time. You lose credibility with both coaches if I have to help you out on that one.

Z

[BOBBYMO]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Bobbymo,

You won't get the chance to thank me. If that isn't my primary or secondary coverage area, I won't be looking there. I trust you as my partner. My assignor wouldn't have put you on that big game with me if you weren't capable. You will get yourself into position and make that call.

If the travel happens in my secondary coverage area, I'll help you out if it's an obvious travel that you missed. But if it's that obvious, we need to talk after the game about why you didn't get yourself into good position to make that obvious call at a crucial time. You lose credibility with both coaches if I have to help you out on that one.

Z

Z-

I agree with you for the most part but as we all know.... As hard as we try to get in the best position to "see the whole play" there are still times when things happen and we get blocked out. It sucks when that happens but it still can happen at no matter what level we are working at.... So if it would happen and my partners saw it.. I would expect them to get it. ESPECIALY AT THE END OF A GAME!!!! I trust my partners also but I believe that our assignor trusts us as a crew to get the play right!!!

To me its the same thing as a last second shot.. Is it a 2 or 3??? Before the buzzer or not?? Most people pregame that in that sittuation we should all take a quick look... In case needed to help out... Why??? To get the play right!!!

I would rather explain to an assignor that I got blocked out of a play and give my partner credit for getting it right then try to explain why someone on our crew saw it and didnt make the call. Lets just get it correct.... Isn't that our job?

Believe me, I am going to do everything I can to get in the best position that I can to be able to make the call. I have refereed many games at many differant levels and you know what??? I have missed a few calls over the years. I will be the 1st to admit that. Am I proud of it .. NO ...but it happens and it makes me work harder every single time I hit the court to not let it happen again.......JMO

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

So if it would happen and my partners saw it.. I would expect them to get it. ESPECIALLY AT THE END OF A GAME!!!! I trust my partners also but I believe that our assignor trusts us as a crew to get the play right!!!

But your partners have their own responsibilities. If they have to call travels in your area, who is reffing the other 8 players? What if both of your partners are looking in your area ("helping") and two rebounders start pushing and shoving each other and nobody is watching them? Now you have a worse mess than a missed travel.

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

To me its the same thing as a last second shot.. Is it a 2 or 3??? Before the buzzer or not?? Most people pregame that in that situation we should all take a quick look... In case needed to help out... Why??? To get the play right!!!

We know which official has the clock in that situation because it's part of any decent pregame. If it's so close at the buzzer that the official with clock responsibilities wants my opinion, he/she can wave me in and I'll give them info on what I heard (not what a I saw because I'm still reffing the game and listening for the horn when I know the clock is getting near 00:00). But that is a different situation than an official reffing their partner's area instead of their own. Besides, I'm not going to be a lot of help because if the shot came out of your area, I wasn't watching the shooter (I could tell a shot went up out of my periphery or because players started to work for rebounding position) and I don't know if the ball left his/her hand before the horn.

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

I would rather explain to an assignor that I got blocked out of a play and give my partner credit for getting it right then try to explain why someone on our crew saw it and didnt make the call. Lets just get it correct.... Isn't that our job?

Our job is to work as a crew, trust each other, and cover our own areas. Honestly, if I can't trust you to get an obvious travel in your area than we shouldn't be working a game together. Partners miss calls. That's reality. Unless you're a brand newbie, I'm not out there babysitting you. I'm letting you do your job.

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

Believe me, I am going to do everything I can to get in the best position that I can to be able to make the call. I have refereed many games at many differant levels and you know what??? I have missed a few calls over the years. I will be the 1st to admit that. Am I proud of it .. NO ...but it happens and it makes me work harder every single time I hit the court to not let it happen again.......JMO

I've missed calls too. We all do. Even the refs at the highest levels miss a call now and then. I cannot recall a single time of ever seeing a D-1 or NBA ref calling a travel in front of one of his/her partners when it was not their primary or secondary area. It would completely ruin crew integrity. Besides, if it happened right in front of an official and didn't get called, maybe it wasn't a travel and it just looked like one from the ball watcher who was looking out of his/her area.

Z

[BOBBYMO]

[quote=zebraman]But your partners have their own responsibilities. If they have to call travels in your area, who is reffing the other 8 players? What if both of your partners are looking in your area ("helping") and two rebounders start pushing and shoving each other and nobody is watching them? Now you have a worse mess than a missed travel

I agree with what you are saying but I am talking about if its a secondary coverage... Or if there is no action in your primary... "Extending your coverage"



We know which official has the clock in that situation because it's part of any decent pregame. If it's so close at the buzzer that the official with clock responsibilities wants my opinion, he/she can wave me in and I'll give them info on what I heard (not what a I saw because I'm still reffing the game and listening for the horn when I know the clock is getting near 00:00). But that is a different situation than an official reffing their partner's area instead of their own. Besides, I'm not going to be a lot of help because if the shot came out of your area, I wasn't watching the shooter (I could tell a shot went up out of my periphery or because players started to work for rebounding position) and I don't know if the ball left his/her hand before the horn.

To me a good partner will help out if /when they can ( if there is no action in their area).. At least be able to give an oppinion if needed)



Our job is to work as a crew, trust each other, and cover our own areas. Honestly, if I can't trust you to get an obvious travel in your area than we shouldn't be working a game together. Partners miss calls. That's reality. Unless you're a brand newbie, I'm not out there babysitting you. I'm letting you do your job.

Not looking for a babbysitter at all but if its an obvious call that need to be called... I really think a partner needs to go get it if they see it



I've missed calls too. We all do. Even the refs at the highest levels miss a call now and then. I cannot recall a single time of ever seeing a D-1 or NBA ref calling a travel in front of one of his/her partners when it was not their primary or secondary area. It would completely ruin crew integrity. Besides, if it happened right in front of an official and didn't get called, maybe it wasn't a travel and it just looked like one from the ball watcher who was looking out of his/her area.


I agree But most of what I am talking about would be in a secondary coverage... But it could also be " right in front of a partner" like was stated in an earlier post.

I think we are on the same page here for the most part!!!

Bobby Mo

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

To me a good partner will help out if /when they can ( if there is no action in their area).. At least be able to give an oppinion if needed)

That sounds wonderful, but what if they are completely wrong? What if they "think" they saw something that the official in their primary clearly saw? One of the things about travel calls as this is commonly missed. I do not want an official calling a travel when they might not have seen the entire play. Usually travel calls are the first thing I comment in the locker room about. Usually a partner called something that did not happen. I just know if at the end of the game you make a call like that, you better be right. This play will be reviewed over and over if a team loses based on that possession.

Peace

[RonRef]

Three things to remember is this order:

1. The Game
2. Your Partners
3. Yourself

When making decisions just remember to follow this formula above.

Getting the call right is most important, if there is any crew discomfort that can be delt with later.

[BOBBYMO]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That sounds wonderful, but what if they are completely wrong? What if they "think" they saw something that the official in their primary clearly saw? One of the things about travel calls as this is commonly missed. I do not want an official calling a travel when they might not have seen the entire play. Usually travel calls are the first thing I comment in the locker room about. Usually a partner called something that did not happen. I just know if at the end of the game you make a call like that, you better be right. This play will be reviewed over and over if a team loses based on that possession.

Peace

J_Rut

I agree with you but at the same time...I believe that you should never make any call that you are not 100% sure of.

[ChuckElias]

I have developed a couple different pre-games. You can find them here: Looking for a detailed pre-game

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BOBBYMO

If you make a travel call right in front of me late in the game when the games on the line and its a travel that I got blocked out of for some reason.............................. I am going to say thanks!!!!

If you make a travel call that was not there, I will kill you in the locker room.

Peace