Block/Charge

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by tmp44

A rule of thumb that I've always used, is that if the offensive player made contact with the defender's chest/torso, the defender obtained LGP and a PC is the proper call.

Originally Posted by TADW

Another hint: you should look at where the contact occurs.

I've heard this rule of thumb, and I've even used it in my pregame; but always with the understanding that the defender is not moving toward the dribbler. Yes, notice where the contact occurs, fine. But make sure that if the defender was moving forward to challege the dribbler, the defender stopped short of contact.

I know you guys know this. But sometimes we get so caught up in our easy-to-remember catch-phrases that we forget they're just shorthand for something a little more complicated.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I've heard this rule of thumb, and I've even used it in my pregame; but always with the understanding that the defender is not moving toward the dribbler. Yes, notice where the contact occurs, fine. But make sure that if the defender was moving forward to challege the dribbler, the defender stopped short of contact.

I know you guys know this. But sometimes we get so caught up in our easy-to-remember catch-phrases that we forget they're just shorthand for something a little more complicated.

It's scary to admit but this was my first thought as well.

There seems to be a focus on not giving the defender the charge in all torso/torso contact plays. Call it yes, but make sure the defender is legal, especially in bang/bang plays.

[deecee]

IREF4U -- however one caveat to remeber is a player who is airborne for a shot -- the defender has to have his position established before the offensive player leaves the ground -- this is the only way i could see why you might have been seeing blocks v. charges.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I am looking for the rule about Time and Distance when it comes to the Block/Charge & Legal Guarding Position. I know the defender has to give the dribbler a chance to avoid him.

See case book play 10.6.2SitA. The ruling applies equally to other offensive players as well as the dribbler.

Time/distance applies to screening principles. See NFHS rules 4-40 and 10-6-3.

[rainmaker]

The way I've been able to make it work in real time, is to

(a) ref the defense, and (b) feel the beat. Think of the defender being in LGP as one thump of the snare drum. Think of the contact as a thump of the bass drum. If the rhythm of the play is Boom ---Tzeet then it's a block. If it's Tzeet -- Boom it's a charge. (I can't bring myself to call this the rhythm method -- can anyone think of a better name?)

Also regarding the cliche of seeing the contact in the torso, remember that a defender can "take a charge" even if he's not facing the dribbler. If the defender is just standing there waving to his mom in the stands, and doesn't move, and the dribbler plows into the defender's shoulder, it's still a charge. LGP only applies to a defender who's guarding. This poor sap is clueless, but he's still entitled to his spot on the floor, as long as he got there first.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

IREF4U -- however one caveat to remeber is a player who is airborne for a shot -- the defender has to have his position established before the offensive player leaves the ground -- this is the only way i could see why you might have been seeing blocks v. charges.

He doesn't have to be shooting in order to get a place to land; only airborne.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Also regarding the cliche of seeing the contact in the torso, remember that a defender can "take a charge" even if he's not facing the dribbler. If the defender is just standing there waving to his mom in the stands, and doesn't move, and the dribbler plows into the defender's shoulder, it's still a charge.

Maybe in theory, but in practice all your games will be reffing kids who spend their time waving to their mom in the stands if you call it this way.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...just sayin'.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Maybe in theory, but in practice all your games will be reffing kids who spend their time waving to their mom in the stands if you call it this way.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...just sayin'.

You're right, 'cause it's such good defense to waive at your mom that it should be illegal.

Just sayin'

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're right, 'cause it's such good defense to waive at your mom that it should be illegal.

Just sayin'

The point is not that waving (not "waiving") should be illegal. The point is that if the kid is standing there waving (not "waiving") to the crowd, he isn't really disadvantaged by being bumped into.

If he's run over and knocked three rows into the bleachers, then maybe we have something, but until then. . .

[Dan_ref]

In this illustration Chuck gives an example of waving (not "waiving"):

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by tmp44

A rule of thumb that I've always used, is that if the offensive player made contact with the defender's chest/torso, the defender obtained LGP and a PC is the proper call.

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I am assuming that you have both of the defender's feet set and you don't have him leaning way into the OP, right?

[tmp44]

Define set for me? Because if by set you mean planted in cement, then no. If defender is sliding side to side (and yes, without 'leaning' into the offensive player) and offensive player dribbles forward, makes contact in the chest, and we have a crash because of it, you better give me a darn good reason to not call a PC.

Originally Posted by refnrev

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I am assuming that you have both of the defender's feet set and you don't have him leaning way into the OP, right?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by refnrev

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I am assuming that you have both of the defender's feet set and you don't have him leaning way into the OP, right?

By rule, after a defender has attained a legal guarding position, there is no subsequent requirement to have any feet set when contact occurs. See NFHS rule 4-23-3.

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

By rule, after a defender has attained a legal guarding position, there is no subsequent requirement to have any feet set when contact occurs. See NFHS rule 4-23-3.

My point exactly.