Block/Charge

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I looked at that, but it says no time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position. If the defender just slides in there, then that is not a legal guarding position.

Why not? You just said time and distance aren't required. If he "slides in there" before the dribbler gets there, he's legal.

[IREFU2]

It's kind of hard to visualize. Lets say, A1 is driving towards the basket and B1 slides right in the path of A1 and A1 doesnt have time to avoid B1. What do you have?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

It's kind of hard to visualize. Lets say, A1 is driving towards the basket and B1 slides right in the path of A1 and A1 doesnt have time to avoid B1. What do you have?

uhmmm...what we have depends on what you mean by "slides right in the path of", doesn't it?

All B1 has to do is obtain LGP (and maintain it under fed rules by staying inbounds) and not move "obliquely" into A1, the dribbler.

By no time or distance they mean there is no maximm or minimum.

[IREFU2]

Hmmm, so B1 can actually slide quickly into the path of A1 driving to the basket and A1 is responsible for all of the contact? I have most always seen this called a block.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Hmmm, so B1 can actually slide quickly into the path of A1 driving to the basket and A1 is responsible for all of the contact? I have most always seen this called a block.

Not if you've ever seen me work

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

It's kind of hard to visualize. Lets say, A1 is driving towards the basket and B1 slides right in the path of A1 and A1 doesnt have time to avoid B1. What do you have?

If B1 obtains legal guarding position before the crash, I have "player control foul".

NCAA 4-33 Art. 3. Every player shall be entitled to a spot on the playing court, provided that such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

NCAA 4-33 Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after the jump, for the guard to attain a guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have attained legal position before the opponent left the playing court.



Did B1 meet the above criteria? If so, why would you want to call a "block"?

Was this from camp??? Was there any sort of discussions by the observers???

[IREFU2]

yes, in the camp, I have seen this called a block several times. I was just curious. Just going over my notes from my last camp.

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

It's kind of hard to visualize. Lets say, A1 is driving towards the basket and B1 slides right in the path of A1 and A1 doesnt have time to avoid B1. What do you have?

A rule of thumb that I've always used, is that if the offensive player made contact with the defender's chest/torso, the defender obtained LGP and a PC is the proper call.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by tmp44

A rule of thumb that I've always used, is that if the offensive player made contact with the defender's chest/torso, the defender obtained LGP and a PC is the proper call.

Originally Posted by TADW

Another hint: you should look at where the contact occurs.

I've heard this rule of thumb, and I've even used it in my pregame; but always with the understanding that the defender is not moving toward the dribbler. Yes, notice where the contact occurs, fine. But make sure that if the defender was moving forward to challege the dribbler, the defender stopped short of contact.

I know you guys know this. But sometimes we get so caught up in our easy-to-remember catch-phrases that we forget they're just shorthand for something a little more complicated.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I've heard this rule of thumb, and I've even used it in my pregame; but always with the understanding that the defender is not moving toward the dribbler. Yes, notice where the contact occurs, fine. But make sure that if the defender was moving forward to challege the dribbler, the defender stopped short of contact.

I know you guys know this. But sometimes we get so caught up in our easy-to-remember catch-phrases that we forget they're just shorthand for something a little more complicated.

It's scary to admit but this was my first thought as well.

There seems to be a focus on not giving the defender the charge in all torso/torso contact plays. Call it yes, but make sure the defender is legal, especially in bang/bang plays.

[deecee]

IREF4U -- however one caveat to remeber is a player who is airborne for a shot -- the defender has to have his position established before the offensive player leaves the ground -- this is the only way i could see why you might have been seeing blocks v. charges.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

IREF4U -- however one caveat to remeber is a player who is airborne for a shot -- the defender has to have his position established before the offensive player leaves the ground -- this is the only way i could see why you might have been seeing blocks v. charges.

He doesn't have to be shooting in order to get a place to land; only airborne.

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by tmp44

A rule of thumb that I've always used, is that if the offensive player made contact with the defender's chest/torso, the defender obtained LGP and a PC is the proper call.

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I am assuming that you have both of the defender's feet set and you don't have him leaning way into the OP, right?

[tmp44]

Define set for me? Because if by set you mean planted in cement, then no. If defender is sliding side to side (and yes, without 'leaning' into the offensive player) and offensive player dribbles forward, makes contact in the chest, and we have a crash because of it, you better give me a darn good reason to not call a PC.

Originally Posted by refnrev

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I am assuming that you have both of the defender's feet set and you don't have him leaning way into the OP, right?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by refnrev

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I am assuming that you have both of the defender's feet set and you don't have him leaning way into the OP, right?

By rule, after a defender has attained a legal guarding position, there is no subsequent requirement to have any feet set when contact occurs. See NFHS rule 4-23-3.