Ever happen?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Well the NFHS POE states "officials must pay particular attention" to "inappropriate language," which is under the classification of "unsporting acts."

Now what is the penalty for an unsporting act in NFHS play? Hmmmmm....is it a verbal warning or a technical foul? I'm sure it's listed in Rule 10.

Of course, I am well aware that you and Rut will do as you wish, and without someone from the NFHS, your state office, or your association there who desires otherwise and has the power to effect what you do, it won't make any difference.

Of course, neither will you and that is sad as I believe that making a difference in the lives of young people is a part of being an NFHS game official. Civility and citizenship is what the NFHS desires.

Hey, Nevada, you can spin this any way you like. Fact remains (as I said) that I only give someone my attention if *I* want to, not if they want me to or if YOU want me to. IOW, I leave my rabbit ears in my bag when I take the floor. But we've already determined that's the difference between us, and I was hoping we could have just moved on from there.

But apparently you're on a mission to clean up the language in every gym on the planet. Far be it from me to stand in your way, just don't expect me to sign up for your little milita.

Just as I don't expect you to pass moral judgement on me, or the impact I might or might not have on the life of anyone.

Clear enough now? Great.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Please do not speak for me. You and I likely do not share the same religious values, political values or social expectations, so save the "save the children" BS. My job is to officiate a game, not save all young people from all things that I do not agree with. Secondly, where I live kids have a lot more problems than who used a bad word. You know, things like poverty, drug uses and dealers throughout their community and not being able to afford and education and the prospect of getting shot. I think those are bigger issues than whether a coach that actually might help them get out of those situations uses a curse word in a huddle or what you consider inappropriate.

Peace

Maybe you and I are about as far apart politically as any 2 on this board, but apparently we have more in common than either of us like to admit.

I agree 100% with what you've written here and it sums up my view completely.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Of course, I am well aware that you and Rut will do as you wish, and without someone from the NFHS, your state office, or your association there who desires otherwise and has the power to effect what you do, it won't make any difference.

Of course, neither will you and that is sad as I believe that making a difference in the lives of young people is a part of being an NFHS game official. Civility and citizenship is what the NFHS desires.

Nevada, all behavioral technical fouls are subjective. Every official has a different level of tolerance when it comes to swearing, arguing, misuse of coaching box, etc. It certainly would be nice if everybody called it the same way, but that just ain't gonna happen. If you can get everybody in a particular crew calling behavior consistently at both ends of the court, then you're ahead of the game. Everybody(players, coaches) knows what to expect then and there shouldn't be any problems. The result is what counts, not the method. As long as the game is properly controlled and played in a half-azz sporting fashion, who cares what means was used to attain that end?

[JRutledge]

We agree on a lot of things. Many of us do if you really think about it. Maybe that is why some of have been here for such a long time.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You still have never answered the question I asked. What is inappropriate language in the first place? There are some people that are a lot older than me that think it is inappropriate to use curse words in the presents of a female, but they must never spend time with many women in my generation and hear them talk. So what you might consider inappropriate might be considered minor in another person's mind or jurisdiction.

First, we are not discussing a situation in which you deem that the language is not inappropriate. We are discussing how to handle a coach, player, or fan at an NFHS game who does use inappropriate language.
You have stated that you would handle this in a manner which is contrary to the NFHS POE. That is what I have taken issue with. Why do you do that? Is that the path of least resistance? Are you afraid of the wrath of a coach or a local assignor? Why won't you do what the NFHS tells you to WHEN YOU DEEM THE LANGUAGE TO BE INAPPROPRIATE?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually Nevada, I have never had anyone from the IHSA define what is "inappropriate" or suggest what would at least not be considered "inappropriate." I can tell you when you work games in the suburbs, rural areas and city areas, what is considered inappropriate is going to very different.

Do you need someone from the IHSA or the NFHS to define it for you? Aren't you confident in your own judgment of what is above the threshold?
I doubt that someone from the IHSA has defined what "disadvantage" means. How do you ever call a foul during a game? Do you just run up and down the court for 32 minutes and never blow the whistle because no one from the IHSA has given you a definition of what contact constitutes a "disadvantage." No you just use your judgment. Do the same with the language.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Please do not speak for me. You and I likely do not share the same religious values, political values or social expectations, so save the "save the children" BS. My job is to officiate a game, not save all young people from all things that I do not agree with. Secondly, where I live kids have a lot more problems than who used a bad word. You know, things like poverty, drug uses and dealers throughout their community and not being able to afford and education and the prospect of getting shot. I think those are bigger issues than whether a coach that actually might help them get out of those situations uses a curse word in a huddle or what you consider inappropriate.

I never attempted to "speak" for you. That is why I specifically wrote "I believe that ..." in the passage you quote. That cannot be clearer. I am speaking what I believe.
What our particular religions, politics, or social experiences are don't matter one bit when it comes to how the NFHS wants us to deal with inappropriate language. While it likely will make a difference in what we judge as inappropriate, our individuality should have no effect upon what we do once we deem that someone has used that kind of language. That is why the NFHS has a national governance. The rules are supposed to be the same in every state in the country. The mechanics are supposed to be the same. The game is supposed to be the same. Now why won't you do what the NATIONAL FEDERATION says to do?

Lastly, it is obvious that you have lost sight of the why behind HS sports. Why does our society have HS athletics? It is to teach our young people lessons that they will need in life. The games are just that: games. They are learning experiences to help them mature and become good citizens.
Sadly you have forgotten that. This is not college or the pros. You have more of a job to do than to "officiate a game."

Kids all over the world face bigger problems than using or hearing bad words. Do you think that drugs, poverty, danger, and race issues are particular to your local area? That's laughable. Yes, certain areas have more or less problems than others and the degree varies too. But what does this have to do with how one conducts himself on a HS basketball court? Do these other problems excuse poor court behavior? Do they permit the use of profanity? Can only poor kids curse? Should we slacken the civility that one person should show to another because one of those persons has obstacles to overcome? Sending that message certainly doesn't help the problems we have in our society.
Why is it only a coach who can help these kids? Do you believe that the officials are not part of the teaching environment of HS sports?
And fyi I lived, worked, and officiated in Washington, D.C. for some time and I'm sure that those kids had all of the same problems that the ones in Chicago have. Those kids also need to grow up and become productive members of our society. If that process can be helped by something learned in HS sports, that is a good thing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

But apparently you're on a mission to clean up the language in every gym on the planet.

It's not my mission, Dan. It's the NFHS's. You can either be a part of it and do what they ask you to or not.

I don't understand why one would chose not to. What is the positive that comes from that?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It's not my mission, Dan. It's the NFHS's. You can either be a part of it and do what they ask you to or not.

I don't understand why one would chose not to. What is the positive that comes from that?

I wasn't aware you're authorized to speak for the NFHS and interpret their goals & mission for the rest of us, or to question our motives and actions relative to the NFHS mission. Congratulations on being named to this lofty position.

Does this mean you won't be typing "WTF" on this forum anymore?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

First, we are not discussing a situation in which you deem that the language is not inappropriate. We are discussing how to handle a coach, player, or fan at an NFHS game who does use inappropriate language.
You have stated that you would handle this in a manner which is contrary to the NFHS POE. That is what I have taken issue with. Why do you do that? Is that the path of least resistance? Are you afraid of the wrath of a coach or a local assignor? Why won't you do what the NFHS tells you to WHEN YOU DEEM THE LANGUAGE TO BE INAPPROPRIATE?

Well it does matter what is considered inappropriate. You and I cannot even agree how to handle this kind of situation. So what makes you think we are going to agree on what is inappropriate? In another thread we have people that cannot even agree what the connotations of what happens when someone is called a "bigot.”

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Do you need someone from the IHSA or the NFHS to define it for you? Aren't you confident in your own judgment of what is above the threshold?
I doubt that someone from the IHSA has defined what "disadvantage" means. How do you ever call a foul during a game? Do you just run up and down the court for 32 minutes and never blow the whistle because no one from the IHSA has given you a definition of what contact constitutes a "disadvantage." No you just use your judgment. Do the same with the language.

Once again you miss the point being made to you. The bottom line is the NF left this part purposely "vague." They did this so officials could use some judgment and I am sure they realize no one is going to just T everyone that does this. Also I am not that concerned with what the coaches say and in many cases I am talking to my partners. I have no idea what they are saying or care for that matter.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I never attempted to "speak" for you. That is why I specifically wrote "I believe that ..." in the passage you quote. That cannot be clearer. I am speaking what I believe.
What our particular religions, politics, or social experiences are don't matter one bit when it comes to how the NFHS wants us to deal with inappropriate language. While it likely will make a difference in what we judge as inappropriate, our individuality should have no effect upon what we do once we deem that someone has used that kind of language. That is why the NFHS has a national governance. The rules are supposed to be the same in every state in the country. The mechanics are supposed to be the same. The game is supposed to be the same. Now why won't you do what the NATIONAL FEDERATION says to do?

I have had many conversations over the years with people on this site and half the time we cannot agree on what language means and its context. So I find it funny that you have a stick stuck up your behind about this issue when the word "inappropriate" is subject to a lot of different factors. I have also learned that as an official, you have to know how to use rules the right way. My first job is to call the game. My job is not to manage the huddle. My job is not to tell all the coaches their timeout situation. My job is not to be right next to the huddle for the possibility that someone might say something that anyone would deem inappropriate. Now if I hear something that "I" feel is inappropriate, then I do what I need to do to let the coach know they need to knock it off. The NF wants the behavior to stop; the NF did not say the only reaction is a T. Remember the NF talks about if the action is considered "minor" you can give a warning.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Lastly, it is obvious that you have lost sight of the why behind HS sports. Why does our society have HS athletics? It is to teach our young people lessons that they will need in life. The games are just that: games. They are learning experiences to help them mature and become good citizens.
Sadly you have forgotten that. This is not college or the pros. You have more of a job to do than to "officiate a game."

Nevadaref, you come from a state that legalizes prostitution and you want to talk to me about morals and missions of the NF? I also think you do not know much about education either. I can tell you that a teacher in the Chicago Public School System has a different set of issues to deal with than someone that lives in Naperville, IL. So if someone curses in a certain urban and inner-city school, that is going to be viewed differently than a kid that lives in a very Christian and conservative area that I currently live in like Wheaton, IL.

It is also clear to me that you know little about officiating if you really think our mission is to right all the wrongs of society. We cannot even agree in this country why we went to war, now we are suppose have the same standards regardless of where you live and what your background is?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Kids all over the world face bigger problems than using or hearing bad words. Do you think that drugs, poverty, danger, and race issues are particular to your local area? That's laughable. Yes, certain areas have more or less problems than others and the degree varies too. But what does this have to do with how one conducts himself on a HS basketball court? Do these other problems excuse poor court behavior? Do they permit the use of profanity? Can only poor kids curse? Should we slacken the civility that one person should show to another because one of those persons has obstacles to overcome? Sending that message certainly doesn't help the problems we have in our society.
Why is it only a coach who can help these kids? Do you believe that the officials are not part of the teaching environment of HS sports?
And fyi I lived, worked, and officiated in Washington, D.C. for some time and I'm sure that those kids had all of the same problems that the ones in Chicago have. Those kids also need to grow up and become productive members of our society. If that process can be helped by something learned in HS sports, that is a good thing.

If you want to help kids give back time to these communities that need it. You are not going to save the world by T'ing everyone that uses language you do not like. Sorry, but kids in many communities need a lot more than language police to tell them what to say or to tell their coach or fans how to talk to them.

Also this conversation is getting silly. If you do not agree with my position on this, either get over it or complain to the appropriate authorities. For the record I cannot think of a time where I heard everything a coach says or does in a huddle. I usually am working a game where a lot of people are present at the games and usually hearing a coach over that is not an easy thing to do. We are not going to agree on what is moral or the purpose as an official. My job is to call the game and use common sense while doing it. Common sense is not to go around calling a T every time someone "might" technically violate a rule.

Peace

Peace