Ever happen?

[JRutledge]

When the NF starts hiring me for games, I will only focus on what the NF wants on this issue to the letter. Until that time, I will apply common sense and practices that work (like was said by Dan). Now if you want to call a T, then do so. You do have rules to back you up.

Here is also the other part of this discussion. Have you ever wondered why the NF never tells you what “inappropriate language” is? It is clear to me that the NF leaves these things open for interpretation or use of some judgment.

You can quote all the rules in the world; it is not dictates philosophy or common sense.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'll let the NFHS write my response to Rut's comments for me....

"2004-05 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
...
4. Specific unsporting acts. The committee is concerned about the following specific unsporting acts. Coaches, players and officials must pay particular attention to these areas:
...
C. Inappropriate language. The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. Each group has a responsibility to the game and to each other to demonstrate civility and citizenship.
The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches' bad language. Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse. Officials are not exempt either. Inappropriate references to players or coaches are not acceptable. Game administrators must also pay particular attention to fans. A game ticket is not a license to abuse."

Now would you rather follow what the NFHS says or Rut's personal opinion?

So I take it you throw out fans for acts of abuse on a regular basis?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

So I take it you throw out fans for acts of abuse on a regular basis?

Well this whole thread is getting rather sarcastic now, but game administrators generally refers to the A.D.

Officials deal with coaches and players. We might bring a fan to the attention of a sleeping A.D. though.

Z

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

So I take it you throw out fans for acts of abuse on a regular basis?

Yes, Dan, I have no problem having spectators removed.
My most recent two were:
1. Last Saturday a guy yelled, "That's bullsh!t," following my partners call.
2. A student from the home school told a visiting player to "Go back to [visiting home town], you fag."

That's not part of HS sports and I will do something about it; and the NFHS has instructed game officials to do so.

Now at the D1 level, I would leave it totally up to the game administration.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, Dan, I have no problem having spectators removed.
My most recent two were:
1. Last Saturday a guy yelled, "That's bullsh!t," following my partners call.
2. A student from the home school told a visiting player to "Go back to [visiting home town], you fag."

That's not part of HS sports and I will do something about it; and the NFHS has instructed game officials to do so.

Now at the D1 level, I would leave it totally up to the game administration.

You got the rabbit ears, eh?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, Dan, I have no problem having spectators removed.
My most recent two were:
1. Last Saturday a guy yelled, "That's bullsh!t," following my partners call.
2. A student from the home school told a visiting player to "Go back to [visiting home town], you fag."

That's not part of HS sports and I will do something about it; and the NFHS has instructed game officials to do so.

Now at the D1 level, I would leave it totally up to the game administration.

Good calls.

Here in Ontario, Basketball Ontario a few years ago had to resort to issuing a province-wide policy of zero tolerance in order to curtail this unacceptable behavoir. I know of some local organizations that did not heed the instructions (remember "When in Rome..."). My local board did and I have to say that those couple years were among the most enjoyable of my career. After a coupla years, it started to go sour again. Nowadays, I spot the crap a mile away and deal with it early.

IMO, my current local board is notorious for being inconsistent with this type of stuff.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, Dan, I have no problem having spectators removed.
My most recent two were:
1. Last Saturday a guy yelled, "That's bullsh!t," following my partners call.
2. A student from the home school told a visiting player to "Go back to [visiting home town], you fag."

That's not part of HS sports and I will do something about it; and the NFHS has instructed game officials to do so.

Now at the D1 level, I would leave it totally up to the game administration.

Man, you hear all that? Half the time I cannot hear anything a coach says, let alone what the fans say.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

You got the rabbit ears, eh?

I've always understood that term to apply to listening in on a private conversation or comments said under one's breath.

For comments that are intended to be public, said loudly and openly, and that are derogatory, I don't believe that that term applies.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Man, you hear all that? ...

There is nothing wrong with my hearing. If someone wants to get my attention, they can. Once they do, I do something about it.
You can call it what you like, but I call it taking care of business.

[johnnyrao]

I never thought of this situation but in AL we tell players and coaches in the pre-game conference that there is a zero tolerance on profanity in the state. Our association president and district commissioner both emphasized it last season and I say it at every game. Since we are supposed to clamp down on players who use profanity (under any situation), I would think the same applies to coaches too. Now, would I? In two years I haven't actually heard a coach curse at a player and, I don't listen for it either. If I hear it I would have to admit that I think it would depend on the circumstance. If it was said low at the end of a TO and I was near the huddle I would probably warn. If it is yelled out loud for all to hear then I think a T is warranted. If you don't call a T and you are being evaluated you may hear about it later. I think this is something I will ask our commissioner.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I've always understood that term to apply to listening in on a private conversation or comments said under one's breath.

For comments that are intended to be public, said loudly and openly, and that are derogatory, I don't believe that that term applies.


There is nothing wrong with my hearing. If someone wants to get my attention, they can. Once they do, I do something about it.
You can call it what you like, but I call it taking care of business.

Here's where we disagree:

I only give someone my attention if *I* want to, not if they want me to. IOW, I leave my rabbit ears in my bag when I take the floor.

I guess we can just leave it at that.

[Raymond]

Guess I work in too many empty gyms, because I have heard fans curse. And when I do, I address it every time. Now, how I address it depends on the atmosphere, the hostily of the crowd, and the pace of the game.

My most common approach (remember I'm working in HS gyms or small JuCo venues, not major college arenas) is just to ask the spectator to please watch his/her language. If the crowd is hostile or the pace of the game doesn't allow for a quick word to the fans, then on an extended dead ball I will contact game admin and inform them that someone in the stands is using inappropriate language. Then it is up to game admin how the situation is handled.

If a coach yells out a curse word at a player after a turnover or a bad play and I happen to be near the coach when he/she does so, I will just say "Hey coach, could you watch your language please?"

I've never had a situation where I've had to ask for a fan to be removed or had to 'T' up a coach for cursing at his players.

[tomegun]

I have a couple of questions/comments.

What is bad language anymore? More and more words are becoming acceptable.

Why would it be showing a coach up to get him to act according to the rules? If a coach is drawing attention to himself/herself and doing something that shouldn't be a part of the game, we should probably do something. Maybe not a T, but something.

I think I hear everything and do little or nothing about most of it. On a lighter note, I like to hear comments directed at me that are funny. I don't look or do anything, just get an internal laugh.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I have a couple of questions/comments.

What is bad language anymore? More and more words are becoming acceptable.

Same questions I asked above.

Originally Posted by tomegun

Why would it be showing a coach up to get him to act according to the rules? If a coach is drawing attention to himself/herself and doing something that shouldn't be a part of the game, we should probably do something. Maybe not a T, but something.

I think many of us are saying you should go to the coach and say something, but not just give a T without trying to stop the action first. At least that is what I am going to do despite how anal Nevadaref wants to be about it.

Originally Posted by tomegun

I think I hear everything and do little or nothing about most of it. On a lighter note, I like to hear comments directed at me that are funny. I don't look or do anything, just get an internal laugh.

I agree most of the comments are funny. You got to laugh at most of them no matter how vulgar.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Here's where we disagree:

I only give someone my attention if *I* want to, not if they want me to. IOW, I leave my rabbit ears in my bag when I take the floor.

I guess we can just leave it at that.

Well the NFHS POE states "officials must pay particular attention" to "inappropriate language," which is under the classification of "unsporting acts."

Now what is the penalty for an unsporting act in NFHS play? Hmmmmm....is it a verbal warning or a technical foul? I'm sure it's listed in Rule 10.

Of course, I am well aware that you and Rut will do as you wish, and without someone from the NFHS, your state office, or your association there who desires otherwise and has the power to effect what you do, it won't make any difference.

Of course, neither will you and that is sad as I believe that making a difference in the lives of young people is a part of being an NFHS game official. Civility and citizenship is what the NFHS desires.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Well the NFHS POE states "officials must pay particular attention" to "inappropriate language," which is under the classification of "unsporting acts."

Now what is the penalty for an unsporting act in NFHS play? Hmmmmm....is it a verbal warning or a technical foul? I'm sure it's listed in Rule 10.

You still have never answered the question I asked. What is inappropriate language in the first place? There are some people that are a lot older than me that think it is inappropriate to use curse words in the presents of a female, but they must never spend time with many women in my generation and hear them talk. So what you might consider inappropriate might be considered minor in another person's mind or jurisdiction.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Of course, I am well aware that you and Rut will do as you wish, and without someone from the NFHS, your state office, or your association there who desires otherwise and has the power to effect what you do, it won't make any difference.

Actually Nevada, I have never had anyone from the IHSA define what is "inappropriate" or suggest what would at least not be considered "inappropriate." I can tell you when you work games in the suburbs, rural areas and city areas, what is considered inappropriate is going to very different.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Of course, neither will you and that is sad as I believe that making a difference in the lives of young people is a part of being an NFHS game official. Civility and citizenship is what the NFHS desires.

Please do not speak for me. You and I likely do not share the same religious values, political values or social expectations, so save the "save the children" BS. My job is to officiate a game, not save all young people from all things that I do not agree with. Secondly, where I live kids have a lot more problems than who used a bad word. You know, things like poverty, drug uses and dealers throughout their community and not being able to afford and education and the prospect of getting shot. I think those are bigger issues than whether a coach that actually might help them get out of those situations uses a curse word in a huddle or what you consider inappropriate.

Peace