Fight during game

[Camron Rust]

Let me see if I've understood you correctly, Jurassic

• A player commits a foul such as a block where the player sticks out a knee and the dribbler goes down...something that can happen several times per game
• This leads to the fouled player to turning around and punch the fouler
• You charge both with fighting without considering the nature of the first contact. You only consider that there was a punch at all. It doesn't matter that only one player lacked self-control and did anthing excessive. Both get penalized based on the actions of the worst offense, not on their own offense.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Let me see if I've understood you correctly, Jurassic

• A player commits a foul such as a block where the player sticks out a knee and the dribbler goes down...something that can happen several times per game
• This leads to the fouled player to turning around and punch the fouler
• You charge both with fighting without considering the nature of the first contact. You only consider that there was a punch at all. It doesn't matter that only one player lacked self-control and did anthing excessive. Both get penalized based on the actions of the worst offense, not on their own offense.

No Camron, you are misunderstanding me completely and are also mis-interpreting what I've been saying. I'm saying that if a player commits an intentional foul such as a deliberate two-handed push, and that deliberate, unsporting act causes another player to react by fighting, then the first player caused the fight, and by rule should be penalized for fighting.

I'm not talking about grabbing shirts like IU said, or sticking a knee out- unless an official thought the knee was deliberately being used to injure an opponent. I sureasheck am considering the nature of the first contact too. The first contact- the deliberate push- caused the fight imo. And that deliberate push by the Lawrence player showed a lack of self-control on his part also imo. And the succeeding excessive reaction has got nothing to do with us as officials either. In the video, if the Wichita player hadda just taken a swing back at the Lawrence kid and missed him completely, it would have been exactly the same call as him kicking the living snot out of the kid, which is what he did. Either way, it's still a fight with flagrant fouls being issued to each participant. It's someone else's job -league, police, etc.- to decide later if the retaliation was excessive, not ours.

It's a judgement call. Any official who's got some spit built up in his whistle, imo, knows the difference between a player fouling an opponent and a player cheap-shotting an opponent. Deliberate pushes, knees, etc. are cheap shots, and if the cheap shot leads directly to a fight, the rules tell us to penalize both players equally. We don't penalize one player more harshly because he might be stronger or a better fighter.

[Dan_ref]

I'm having trouble understandng what the disagreement is here.

Clearly, if in your judgement an action by A1 instigates a fighting response from B1 then both players are guilty of fighting. The instigation could be words or actions. That is the rule.

And as Rut said, getting your azz kicked does not mean you didn't fight.

Just means you didn't fight well.

(And I'm tempted to add if you don't fight well & get your azz kicked maybe there's a lesson to be learned, but I wouldn't want to stir anyone up with such an insensitive comment...)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I'm having trouble understandng what the disagreement is here.

Clearly, if in your judgement an action by A1 instigates a fighting response from B1 then both players are guilty of fighting. The instigation could be words or actions. That is the rule.

And as Rut said, getting your azz kicked does not mean you didn't fight.

Just means you didn't fight well.

But is is NOT the rule. An actoin by A1 causing B1 to fight is not necessarily a fight. Perhaps B1 got tired of being fouled...simple, plain, fouls. B1 can not take offense, start a fight, and get A1 tossed too just becasue B1 responds by fighting.

The rule is that if A1 either throws a punch/kick/etc. or commits an unsporting act (defined in the rulebook as a non-contact foul) and B1 responds by fighting, then A1 is fighting. It doesn't NOT say that if A1 commits a foul and B1 responds by fighting that A1 has fought.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

But is is NOT the rule. An actoin by A1 causing B1 to fight is not necessarily a fight. Perhaps B1 got tired of being fouled...simple, plain, fouls. B1 can not take offense, start a fight, and get A1 tossed too just becasue B1 responds by fighting.

The rule is that if A1 either throws a punch/kick/etc. or commits an unsporting act (defined in the rulebook as a non-contact foul) and B1 responds by fighting, then A1 is fighting. It doesn't NOT say that if A1 commits a foul and B1 responds by fighting that A1 has fought.

Uhhh....Camron...?

Where did I say that A1 commits a foul?

All I said was "if in your judgement an action by A1 instigates a fighting response from B1 then both players are guilty of fighting".

Which I believe agrees with your post 137%. And BTW, my response to A1 getting tired of being fouled is for A1 to tell his coach he needs to get some bench time. IOW I don't care that A1 thinks he's getting fouled too much. Not my concern. But I digress.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Uhhh....Camron...?

Where did I say that A1 commits a foul?

You said "an action"....a very broad term. That could easily be a foul.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

All I said was "if in your judgement an action by A1 instigates a fighting response from B1 then both players are guilty of fighting".

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You said "an action"....a very broad term. That could easily be a foul.

Well, I did also say "in your judgement", so just how "easily" any action is judged to instigate a fight is very much dependant on, well, your judgement.

If you think a foul could "easily" lead to a fight then I'm not going to argue your judgement or experience. Just don't expect me to agree with you.