This happened last night. Clarification on rule.

[GregAlan]

Hello.

Working a YMCA 7th and 8th grade girls' game last night. At one point, under the basket, A1 goes on her knees on a rebound, grabs the ball, looks for a teammate to pass to, and throws the ball to A2, who proceeds to head down court. There is no call either by myself or my partner.

The coach of the B Team yells out, "traveling, traveling". Neither referee reacts to this. He won't let it go and yells for the next minute, at least, how we blew the call, that was traveling, and that we should call the game fairly, and so forth.

Previously in the game, in front of his bench, one of his players, B1, went down on the floor for the ball, and then got up with the ball to start dribbling. We called traveling on that. He yelled at us then that it wasn't traveling. I told him it was if she gets up from her knees to her feet.

What is the specific rule on being on the floor and when is it traveling. The way that I call it, is if the person's momentum takes them to the floor, or they go onto the floor after the ball, they can look for a teammate to get the ball to, and that's not a travel, but if they move around to avoid opposing players, that's a travel. Also, if they go from being on the floor to a knee, that's a travel, or they go from being on one knee, to their feet, that's a travel.

Can you shed some light on this, considering high school rules.

Thanks.

G

[Raymond]

from NCAA rule 4-66

A.R. 39. Is it traveling when a player (a) falls to the playing court while holding the ball; or (b) gains control of the ball while on the playing court and then, because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the player passes or starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet?
RULING: In (a), yes, because it is virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot when falling to the playing floor. In (b), no. The player may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a timeout. Once the player has the ball and is no longer sliding, he or she may not roll over. When flat on his or her back, the player may sit up without violating. When the player puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to touch the ball, it also is traveling. When a player rises to his or her feet while holding the ball, it is traveling. When a player falls to one knee while holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by GregAlan

Hello.



The coach of the B Team yells out, "traveling, traveling". Neither referee reacts to this. He won't let it go and yells for the next minute, at least, how we blew the call, that was traveling, and that we should call the game fairly, and so forth.

Please tell me you whacked this guy?????

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by GregAlan

Hello.

Working a YMCA 7th and 8th grade girls' game last night. At one point, under the basket, A1 goes on her knees on a rebound, grabs the ball, looks for a teammate to pass to, and throws the ball to A2, who proceeds to head down court. There is no call either by myself or my partner.

The coach of the B Team yells out, "traveling, traveling". Neither referee reacts to this. He won't let it go and yells for the next minute, at least, how we blew the call, that was traveling, and that we should call the game fairly, and so forth.

Previously in the game, in front of his bench, one of his players, B1, went down on the floor for the ball, and then got up with the ball to start dribbling. We called traveling on that. He yelled at us then that it wasn't traveling. I told him it was if she gets up from her knees to her feet.

What is the specific rule on being on the floor and when is it traveling. The way that I call it, is if the person's momentum takes them to the floor, or they go onto the floor after the ball, they can look for a teammate to get the ball to, and that's not a travel, but if they move around to avoid opposing players, that's a travel. Also, if they go from being on the floor to a knee, that's a travel, or they go from being on one knee, to their feet, that's a travel.

Can you shed some light on this, considering high school rules.

Thanks.

G

First, the correct penalty for the coach's behavior is 2 shots and the ball at the division line for the opponent. You MUST issue a technical foul to him when he acts like this. Otherwise, you are failing to control the game or be helpful to youth sports.

Now for the NFHS traveling rule: (I put the part that matters most to you in red.)


Rule 4, SECTION 44 TRAVELING
Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows:
ART. 1 . . . A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.
ART. 2 . . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.
ART. 4 . . . After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.
ART. 5 . . . A player holding the ball:
a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.


And a few casebook plays to help you enforce this rule correctly:

4.44.5 SITUATION A: Is it traveling if A1 falls to the floor: (a) while holding the ball; or (b) after being airborne to catch a pass or control a rebound? RULING: Yes in both (a) and (b).
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)
4.44.5 SITUATION C: A1 is dribbling when he/she: (a) drops to a position with a knee on the floor and then ends the dribble; or (b) drops one knee to the floor and then stands again while continuing the dribble. RULING: The action in both (a) and (b) is legal. However, if A1 touches a knee to the floor while holding the ball, it would be traveling as A1 has touched the floor with something other than a hand or foot.
4.44.5 SITUATION D: A1 secures possession of the ball with one knee in contact with the floor. May A1 assume a standing position without committing a traveling violation? RULING: It depends on what A1 does. If A1 attempts to stand up while holding the ball, a traveling violation occurs. However, if A1 starts a dribble and then rises, no violation has occurred. Also, A1 could pass, try for goal or call a time-out from that position.

[TravelinMan]

Greg Alan - regarding the behavior of the coach. I think it was wrong not to say or do anything to the coach. Makes you as officials look incompetent and weak. Try doing this next time. Give him the Stop sign - "coach that's enough" (and say it with conviction). This way you give him the opportunity to stop yelling and correct his behavior. If he ignores you, then T him up. If he listens now but gets out of hand later in the game, T him up. Better game management. And this is not just my opinion. You'll hear this from the elite officials - the ones that give clinics at the camps.

[REFVA]

In reference to the coach yelling , I had two situation last night where the fouls seem to have been going the wrong way, not his of course, my partner had a blocking foul and mistakenly signalled Charge, The call was correct the mechanics was wrong, anyway the coach turned around becuase his player seem to have been playing out of control and getting so many fouls, " are you guys wanting to get out of here early". Bingo no hesitation T.

Second instance was same team, a player a no foul call clean block, turns to me" you got to be kidding, are you blind" Bingo, Player gets a T.

So again both instances the coach and player questioning our intergrity. Both diserving of the T.

So when a coach yells out call it both ways, he is implying that you have no integrity. That is a no no.. T him/her up..

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by GregAlan

Hello.

Working a YMCA 7th and 8th grade girls' game last night. At one point, under the basket, A1 goes on her knees on a rebound, grabs the ball, looks for a teammate to pass to, and throws the ball to A2, who proceeds to head down court. There is no call either by myself or my partner.

The coach of the B Team yells out, "traveling, traveling". Neither referee reacts to this. He won't let it go and yells for the next minute, at least, how we blew the call, that was traveling, and that we should call the game fairly, and so forth.

Previously in the game, in front of his bench, one of his players, B1, went down on the floor for the ball, and then got up with the ball to start dribbling. We called traveling on that. He yelled at us then that it wasn't traveling. I told him it was if she gets up from her knees to her feet.

What is the specific rule on being on the floor and when is it traveling. The way that I call it, is if the person's momentum takes them to the floor, or they go onto the floor after the ball, they can look for a teammate to get the ball to, and that's not a travel, but if they move around to avoid opposing players, that's a travel. Also, if they go from being on the floor to a knee, that's a travel, or they go from being on one knee, to their feet, that's a travel.

Can you shed some light on this, considering high school rules.

Thanks.

G

First of all, you should have had a chat with the coach and tell him to relax in a nice way. Ignoring a coach only make the situation worse as the game goes on. I probably would not have T'd him for that. But I would have chatted with him and let him know that he is very close to getting one. As far as the rules, they have been cited already.

[SMEngmann]

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

Greg Alan - regarding the behavior of the coach. I think it was wrong not to say or do anything to the coach. Makes you as officials look incompetent and weak. Try doing this next time. Give him the Stop sign - "coach that's enough" (and say it with conviction). This way you give him the opportunity to stop yelling and correct his behavior. If he ignores you, then T him up. If he listens now but gets out of hand later in the game, T him up. Better game management. And this is not just my opinion. You'll hear this from the elite officials - the ones that give clinics at the camps.

I disagree that a stop sign is the right approach here, it gives the coach too much leeway to continue his behavior and test you. What the coach is doing here is directly challenging your integrity and competence as an official, and doing so loudly to the point where he's threatening to undermine your control of the game. You need to firmly establish who's in charge of the game right now and do it in a way that everyone in the gym will understand too.

I rarely do middle school games anymore, but it just so happens that last weekend I did a 6th grade girls game at a big AAU tournament, and the coach for one of the teams thought he was a fan at an NBA game, first getting loud because I "missed" a high dribble that he thought was a carry, which I addressed as I went by and then yelling at my partner because of a good no call on the other end. I spun and demonstratively whacked the guy 22 seconds in, and when he started to question me I told him to sit down if he didn't want another. The guy was a good boy the rest of the game, and was very respectful.

Different approaches work with different people. I would never have reacted that way in a higher level game, particularly being demonstrative with the T, but at the level described, often coaches are dealing with newer officials and they try to intimidate them and control the game from the sidelines. You need to draw a line in the sand early that tells everyone in the gym that you're in charge if you're challenged and maintain that level of control throughout. A warning doesn't do that in my opinion, a strong T does.

[TravelinMan]

[QUOTE=SMEngmann]I disagree that a stop sign is the right approach here, it gives the coach too much leeway to continue his behavior and test you. What the coach is doing here is directly challenging your integrity and competence as an official, and doing so loudly to the point where he's threatening to undermine your control of the game. You need to firmly establish who's in charge of the game right now and do it in a way that everyone in the gym will understand too.

If you read my post, I say that the stop sign is a FINAL WARNING. I do NOT warn more than once. I am NOTgiving the coach ANY leeway to continue his behavior. One more word now or at any further point in the game is a T or toss. I don't know what your STOP sign looks like, but I can assure you mine is something you will remember for some time.

[Back In The Saddle]

In a 7th/8th grade game, I'd most likely sternly warn the coach the first time. This level of ball is where coaches come to learn, which rightly implies that they don't yet know how to behave properly. You stifle that learning when you ignore this behavior. You aid that learning when you address it. Unless his behavior is outrageous, I'd suggest you give him a chance, one chance, to mend his ways. Give him a rather stern, completely obvious stop sign. If he doesn't take the hint, whack him fast. And the second T shouldn't be too difficult to earn either.

Now in a HS game, the coach should already know better. If he behaves in this manner, he triggers an auto-whack response.