The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 31, 2006, 06:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 31, 2006, 06:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 15,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Can anyone provide a rules reference for this btw?

I didn't look in the nfhs book but from what I can tell the ncaa book does not constrain a coach/player to request a TO only during the time it can be granted. It only says when the official may actually grant a request after it is requested.
I guess it could depend upon how you interpret it, but here's the NFHS rule quote:

5-8-3 . . . Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

For me the key element in the above rule is the timing of the request by the player or head coach, not the granting by the official. This understanding is strongly supported by the following two casebook plays:

5.8.3 SITUATION D: A1 or A2 requests a time-out: (a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball; (b) while A1's throw-in is in flight toward A2; or (c) when the ball is on the floor at A1's disposal for a throw-in. RULING: The request is granted in (a) and (c), but denied in (b), as there is no player control while the ball is loose between players.

5.8.3 SITUATION F: A1's dribble is “interrupted” when the ball deflects off his/her shoe. A1 or a teammate asks or signals for a time-out as the ball bounces toward: (a) the sideline; or (b) the division line. RULING: The request cannot be granted in (a) or (b), since A1's dribble has been “interrupted” and the ball is loose. (4-15-6c)

For example, in the last play I wouldn't wait until a player of Team A controlled the ball and then belatedly grant the time-out request which A1 or his teammate made previously while the ball was loose and bouncing on the floor. I would need another time-out request which was made while a member of Team A had player control. Perhaps you would not do the same.
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 31, 2006, 07:39pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I guess it could depend upon how you interpret it, but here's the NFHS rule quote:

5-8-3 . . . Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

For me the key element in the above rule is the timing of the request by the player or head coach, not the granting by the official. This understanding is strongly supported by the following two casebook plays:

5.8.3 SITUATION D: A1 or A2 requests a time-out: (a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball; (b) while A1's throw-in is in flight toward A2; or (c) when the ball is on the floor at A1's disposal for a throw-in. RULING: The request is granted in (a) and (c), but denied in (b), as there is no player control while the ball is loose between players.

5.8.3 SITUATION F: A1's dribble is “interrupted” when the ball deflects off his/her shoe. A1 or a teammate asks or signals for a time-out as the ball bounces toward: (a) the sideline; or (b) the division line. RULING: The request cannot be granted in (a) or (b), since A1's dribble has been “interrupted” and the ball is loose. (4-15-6c)

For example, in the last play I wouldn't wait until a player of Team A controlled the ball and then belatedly grant the time-out request which A1 or his teammate made previously while the ball was loose and bouncing on the floor. I would need another time-out request which was made while a member of Team A had player control. Perhaps you would not do the same.
Thanks.

Although in the case play it does say the request shall be denied, we can infer that the request shall be denied at that time only to be granted at a later time. Where does it say a request that is made at the wrong time needs to be resubmitted?

FWIW, the relevant ncaa rule is under 5-9, which says:

Art. 3. Grants a player’s visual or oral request for a timeout, such request being granted when:
a. The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his or her team.
Exception 1: After the throw-in starts, no timeout shall be granted to the opponents of the throw-in team.
Exception 2: No timeout may be granted during an interrupted dribble.
b. The ball is dead.
c. A disqualified or injured player(s) has been replaced when a substitute(s) is available.
Art. 4. Grants a coach’s request for a timeout, such request being granted only when the coach’s team is in possession of the ball (this includes throwins and free throws) or when the ball is dead. The official must be certain the request was made by the head coach.

I don't see any related AR's.

FWIW2, when I can't grant a request per rule during a loose ball etc I do ask "still want it" when the the coach's team takes control of the ball. Often enough this is a gut reaction by the coach, or even a premediated attempt to get a TO when he knows it's not to be granted by rule. When a coach asks prematurely and conditionally for a TO (ie requests on the make when a shot/FT is in the air) I grant it without re-asking on the make. He's a big boy, I'm assuming he knows what he wants in this case.

As someone else said, it's just what I do. If you feel the need to do differently then do so.
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 12:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,342
I am with Rich, Dan and Brad on this on this one. What do you do when a coach makes a request as follow?

Sit: Team B is shooting the second of two FT's

Coach: Next dead ball, I want a time-out
Official: Coach, I will look at you, you will have to request a time out again.

Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 01:14am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
I am with Rich, Dan and Brad on this on this one. What do you do when a coach makes a request as follow?

Sit: Team B is shooting the second of two FT's

Coach: Next dead ball, I want a time-out
Official: Coach, I will look at you, you will have to request a time out again.

Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.
What if the shooter misses the FT and they spend several minutes trying to make a shot and then a basket is made. Are you going to award the TO now?

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 08:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
What if the shooter misses the FT and they spend several minutes trying to make a shot and then a basket is made. Are you going to award the TO now?

Peace
No sir! different situation now.
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 11:25pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
No sir! different situation now.
Not it is not.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 01:45am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie

Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.
Yes, and the head coach has to make a request at that time as per the same rule.
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 12:18pm
Esteemed Participant
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 4,775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Yes, and the head coach has to make a request at that time as per the same rule.
Where does it say that? The rule says we grant it at that time - not that they have to request it at that time...if someone shoots, and coach says "Time-out if it goes" while the ball is in the air, I'm giving them the time-out after it goes thru...that's per the rule - I granted it at the correct time.
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 12:54pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
Where does it say that? The rule says we grant it at that time - not that they have to request it at that time...if someone shoots, and coach says "Time-out if it goes" while the ball is in the air, I'm giving them the time-out after it goes thru...that's per the rule - I granted it at the correct time.
Did you read the NCAA rule that I cited to Dan? Pretty explicit, isn't it? Can you point me to language anywhere that also talks about granting a TO request made before a goal?

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 12:57pm.
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 08:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Yes, and the head coach has to make a request at that time as per the same rule.
Sir! I would like to thank you for your continuing interest in my development. You are correct, the request must be made again. Once again thank you.
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 02:32am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 15,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
Is the ball not dead once it is in the net? per rule 5-8-3b.
Strictly speaking, no it is NOT. The ball is not dead until the goal is made and for that to happen the ball must do more than just enter the basket/net. It must remain in there or pass through. How long it must remain in there before the goal is made is up to the judgment of the official.
And that is per rule 5-1-1.
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 04:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 423
I don't understand what the big deal is here on the timeout issue, just use common sense and don't say or do anything stupid. In my opinion, a comment like, "I'll be looking for your request on the make," can be superfluous and annoying. I deem it to be a bit on the overly officious side. It is a comment that doesn't need to be made IMO.

On the other hand, too many things can change a coach's mind, and there always could be that 1 time when you blow a whistle for a timeout that the coach doesn't want anymore. Now you've basically put yourself into a bind, because the problems that could result compared to the inconvenience of confirming the request are too large. At the wrong time, you could ruin your game by doing this, or lose a lot of credibility.

The way I deal with these situations is to simply acknowledge the request with a nod, and then when the free throw goes, I look to the coach for the request, or for confirmation. There is nothing overly officious about doing that, but you still do get the confirmation. And there have been cases where the coach changed his mind.
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 07:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
The way I deal with these situations is to simply acknowledge the request with a nod, and then when the free throw goes, I look to the coach for the request, or for confirmation. There is nothing overly officious about doing that, but you still do get the confirmation.
I used to think that was "common sense", too. Then one night the coach told me he wanted the TO on the make. I nodded. The FT went in. I looked at him. He looked at me. I looked at him really hard. He looked at me.

The ball was inbounded, he gave me a "Where is my TO?" look, and I gave him a "You didn't ask" shrug.

Now, when the coach asks for a TO on the make, I say, "I'll stay right here. Just remind me."
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 01, 2006, 11:07am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Strictly speaking, no it is NOT. The ball is not dead until the goal is made and for that to happen the ball must do more than just enter the basket/net. It must remain in there or pass through. How long it must remain in there before the goal is made is up to the judgment of the official.
And that is per rule 5-1-1.
Strictly speaking, who cares?
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Comments on NFHS Rules Revisions Grail Basketball 2 Fri May 12, 2006 02:04pm
New Rule comments JRutledge Basketball 23 Fri May 13, 2005 01:55pm
Comments in the POE Nevadaref Basketball 1 Thu Nov 20, 2003 09:20pm
T.V comments Ms.vs.ILL refjef40 Basketball 21 Tue Feb 04, 2003 02:09pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1