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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 11:36am
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Question

Shot goes up, foul away from the ball...ball goes in. Bucket is good, however does the team then receive the ball back, or is the foul the only penalty that they get? What rule backs that up?

Also, I heard that the ball cannot pass the plane of the backcourt...even if the ball doesn't touch the ground... what rule states differently?

Thanks
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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 12:15pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by dhodges007
Shot goes up, foul away from the ball...ball goes in. Bucket is good, however does the team then receive the ball back, or is the foul the only penalty that they get? What rule backs that up?
I assume this was a foul by the defense.

Since the ball was in the air (or once the shooter started his / her motion), the ball doesn't become dead until the try ends. Allw the basket and enforce the penalty for the foul. Since it wasn't a foul on a shooter, the penalty is either free throws or the ball out of bounds.

See 6-7, 10 Summary of Fouls, 6.7F (it refers to a situation involving a free throw, but the same rules apply to a try).

Quote:
Also, I heard that the ball cannot pass the plane of the backcourt...even if the ball doesn't touch the ground... what rule states differently?

Thanks
None. The "plane" of the backcourt is on no consequence. Location is determined by touching the floor or a player or an object on the floor. See 4-4, 7-1 and 7-2.
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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 12:41pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dhodges007
[B]Shot goes up, foul away from the ball...ball goes in.

Where is the advantage/disadvantage in this situation?

It's better to hold your whistle until you see an advantage or disadvantage. If the ball goes in, no whistle...warn the offender (unless unsportsmanlike, flagrant, or double). This creates better flow for the game. If the ball comes off the rim, you probably have an advantage or disadvantage and should make the call.

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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 01:08pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffRef
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by dhodges007
Shot goes up, foul away from the ball...ball goes in.

Where is the advantage/disadvantage in this situation?

It's better to hold your whistle until you see an advantage or disadvantage. If the ball goes in, no whistle...warn the offender (unless unsportsmanlike, flagrant, or double). This creates better flow for the game. If the ball comes off the rim, you probably have an advantage or disadvantage and should make the call.

What does the shot have to do with a foul away from the ball? Because it goes in we let the defense get a free shot? Since there is no rebound there is no advantage? I think it needs to be a legit foul, but if someone gets thumped, shot or no, you need to call it. Letting it go sets you up for worse stuff later on. Maybe FIBA wants you to pass on it, but here you should keep it clean every where on the floor.

Especially if you are one of the POE huggers. This is where most rough play comes from. One guy thinks he got cheap shot, then comes back and lays on the other guy, and it goes from there.
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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 01:42pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Watson
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffRef
Quote:
Originally posted by dhodges007
Shot goes up, foul away from the ball...ball goes in.

Where is the advantage/disadvantage in this situation?

It's better to hold your whistle until you see an advantage or disadvantage. If the ball goes in, no whistle...warn the offender (unless unsportsmanlike, flagrant, or double). This creates better flow for the game. If the ball comes off the rim, you probably have an advantage or disadvantage and should make the call.


What does the shot have to do with a foul away from the ball? Because it goes in we let the defense get a free shot? Since there is no rebound there is no advantage? I think it needs to be a legit foul, but if someone gets thumped, shot or no, you need to call it. Letting it go sets you up for worse stuff later on. Maybe FIBA wants you to pass on it, but here you should keep it clean every where on the floor.

Especially if you are one of the POE huggers. This is where most rough play comes from. One guy thinks he got cheap shot, then comes back and lays on the other guy, and it goes from there.
I think we both agree the goal is to let the players involved know you saw the play and will not tolerate the behavior. In my case, most players and coaches know me as a communicator who tries "not" to blow the whistle (FIBA or NCAA). Most respect that and a phrase like "33...keep the box outs clean!" (loud enough for all to hear) has always worked for me. Blowing the whistle is a different means to the same end; however, in my opinion, it unecessarily interrupts the flow of the game.
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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 03:28pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffRef
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Watson
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffRef
Quote:
Originally posted by dhodges007
Shot goes up, foul away from the ball...ball goes in.

Where is the advantage/disadvantage in this situation?

It's better to hold your whistle until you see an advantage or disadvantage. If the ball goes in, no whistle...warn the offender (unless unsportsmanlike, flagrant, or double). This creates better flow for the game. If the ball comes off the rim, you probably have an advantage or disadvantage and should make the call.


What does the shot have to do with a foul away from the ball? Because it goes in we let the defense get a free shot? Since there is no rebound there is no advantage? I think it needs to be a legit foul, but if someone gets thumped, shot or no, you need to call it. Letting it go sets you up for worse stuff later on. Maybe FIBA wants you to pass on it, but here you should keep it clean every where on the floor.

Especially if you are one of the POE huggers. This is where most rough play comes from. One guy thinks he got cheap shot, then comes back and lays on the other guy, and it goes from there.
I think we both agree the goal is to let the players involved know you saw the play and will not tolerate the behavior. In my case, most players and coaches know me as a communicator who tries "not" to blow the whistle (FIBA or NCAA). Most respect that and a phrase like "33...keep the box outs clean!" (loud enough for all to hear) has always worked for me. Blowing the whistle is a different means to the same end; however, in my opinion, it unecessarily interrupts the flow of the game.
I agree with all of you on ad/disad...however, they have been warned and called fouls on them before. It was a pretty good push and something I was not ready to tolerate and let the game go. I did exactly that, gave the ball back to the Offense and it didn't happen again. They got the message!
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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 04:16pm
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Question

Jeff, let me disagree for a moment. Here's the scenario. You have a foul on one end that you don't call because the shot went in. Later, you have a foul on the other end (different players) and the shot doesn't go in and you call it.

That coach yells at you to "call it both ways". We all know you should ignore him, but in this case, he has a point.

Frankly, what's the reasoning here? An off the ball foul is a foul only if the shot taken at that time goes in?

I think that's a real hard sell. Me - I call the fouls I see.
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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 05:03pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Jeff, let me disagree for a moment. Here's the scenario. You have a foul on one end that you don't call because the shot went in. Later, you have a foul on the other end (different players) and the shot doesn't go in and you call it.

That coach yells at you to "call it both ways". We all know you should ignore him, but in this case, he has a point.

Frankly, what's the reasoning here? An off the ball foul is a foul only if the shot taken at that time goes in?

I think that's a real hard sell. Me - I call the fouls I see.
I had an NCAA ref tell me that if there isn't ad/disad...there is no foul. Unless it was hard/unsportsmanlike...

Just a thought!
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Old Mon Jul 16, 2001, 10:49pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by dhodges007

I had an NCAA ref tell me that if there isn't ad/disad...there is no foul. Unless it was hard/unsportsmanlike...

Just a thought!
You completely ignored what Mark had to say, didn't you? "I'm right and no one's going to change my mind!"

Advantage/disadvantage is terrific. But it's not the only principle that covers the way we officiate the game. We also have to be fair. To ignore a foul on one end because the basket when in but to whistle the same foul on the other end because the ball didn't go in is not fair. One team was allowed to foul and get away with it but the opponent wasn't because he got called for the foul. You're telling me that's not an advantage? Forgive me but that's horsesh*t.
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2001, 09:43am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Jeff, let me disagree for a moment. Here's the scenario. You have a foul on one end that you don't call because the shot went in. Later, you have a foul on the other end (different players) and the shot doesn't go in and you call it.

That coach yells at you to "call it both ways". We all know you should ignore him, but in this case, he has a point.

Frankly, what's the reasoning here? An off the ball foul is a foul only if the shot taken at that time goes in?

I think that's a real hard sell. Me - I call the fouls I see.
I used to call this foul for the exact reasons you gave until one day my mentor saw me make the call in a boys varsity game. He raked me over the coals! He said that foul had absolutely nothing to do with the play and all I did was interrupt the flow of a great game. He said the boys were big and contact is expected. I asked for a rebuttal to a disagreeing coach. He said let the coach know you had a good look at the play, you saw the contact, and decided there was no advantage. He also reminded me most good coaches wouldn't object to the no-call as long as you are consistent with it.
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2001, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally posted by JeffRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Jeff, let me disagree for a moment. Here's the scenario. You have a foul on one end that you don't call because the shot went in. Later, you have a foul on the other end (different players) and the shot doesn't go in and you call it.

That coach yells at you to "call it both ways". We all know you should ignore him, but in this case, he has a point.

Frankly, what's the reasoning here? An off the ball foul is a foul only if the shot taken at that time goes in?

I think that's a real hard sell. Me - I call the fouls I see.
I used to call this foul for the exact reasons you gave until one day my mentor saw me make the call in a boys varsity game. He raked me over the coals! He said that foul had absolutely nothing to do with the play and all I did was interrupt the flow of a great game. He said the boys were big and contact is expected. I asked for a rebuttal to a disagreeing coach. He said let the coach know you had a good look at the play, you saw the contact, and decided there was no advantage. He also reminded me most good coaches wouldn't object to the no-call as long as you are consistent with it.
I'm voting with Tony on this, I don't see where it's fair to
pass just because the ball went in the hole. In fact, we
should be rewarding the shooter by giving him the FT. As
for coaches & consistency, most *good* coaches will not be
*good enough* to see you are consistent in not calling
fouls on shots that went in. They just see that things go
differently for some reason, but he's surely getting the
sh*tty end of the stick. Whatever you do don't give them
the "I saw it but the ball went in" line because they will
be all over you the first time *they* see one & the ball
doesn't go in, if not sooner. At least the *good* coaches,
anyway. There are coaches who understand
this concept, but they almost to a man (person?) disagree
with it and will use it against you when the money's on
the table. The only time I blow on a missed shot is when
the contact is marginal and I wanted to reconsider
anyway, which really does not happen all that much.
Occasionally I'll freeze up & not blow on an obvious foul
(it happens ) and the ball not going in allows me to
blow late without too much hassle. Doesn't
happen all that often, just more often than I like.
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2001, 10:49am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Frankly, what's the reasoning here? An off the ball foul is a foul only if the shot taken at that time goes in?

I think that's a real hard sell. Me - I call the fouls I see.
I agree with Mark. The way it was explained to me is that there IS an advantage gained, even if the ball goes in. The advantage is the possibility of a rebound, not the rebound itself. If the foul is marginal, or near the beginning of the game, I suppose a warning might be enough, but otherwise you gotta call it.

Mark sounds like he's being a tough nut when you read what he posts here, but he doesn't carry it too far. Coaches know that when Mark walks through the door, they will get a game called tightly, but fairly. He is very, very good at it, and gets a lot of respect.
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2001, 11:23am
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While in the college game this is probably a good no call
in most cases, it needs to be called in the H.S. game the college players are by in large much more coachable and the games are much more structured. This is something that could really lead to ugly situations later like most other
things we wish to get rid of during the H.S. game call it early and it usually taskes care of it for the whole game.
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2001, 12:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Jeff, let me disagree for a moment. Here's the scenario. You have a foul on one end that you don't call because the shot went in. Later, you have a foul on the other end (different players) and the shot doesn't go in and you call it.

That coach yells at you to "call it both ways". We all know you should ignore him, but in this case, he has a point.

Frankly, what's the reasoning here? An off the ball foul is a foul only if the shot taken at that time goes in?

I think that's a real hard sell. Me - I call the fouls I see.
I used to call this foul for the exact reasons you gave until one day my mentor saw me make the call in a boys varsity game. He raked me over the coals! He said that foul had absolutely nothing to do with the play and all I did was interrupt the flow of a great game. He said the boys were big and contact is expected. I asked for a rebuttal to a disagreeing coach. He said let the coach know you had a good look at the play, you saw the contact, and decided there was no advantage. He also reminded me most good coaches wouldn't object to the no-call as long as you are consistent with it.
I'm voting with Tony on this, I don't see where it's fair to
pass just because the ball went in the hole. In fact, we
should be rewarding the shooter by giving him the FT. As
for coaches & consistency, most *good* coaches will not be
*good enough* to see you are consistent in not calling
fouls on shots that went in. They just see that things go
differently for some reason, but he's surely getting the
sh*tty end of the stick. Whatever you do don't give them
the "I saw it but the ball went in" line because they will
be all over you the first time *they* see one & the ball
doesn't go in, if not sooner. At least the *good* coaches,
anyway. There are coaches who understand
this concept, but they almost to a man (person?) disagree
with it and will use it against you when the money's on
the table. The only time I blow on a missed shot is when
the contact is marginal and I wanted to reconsider
anyway, which really does not happen all that much.
Occasionally I'll freeze up & not blow on an obvious foul
(it happens ) and the ball not going in allows me to
blow late without too much hassle. Doesn't
happen all that often, just more often than I like.
Dan,

The scenario we are discussing is an away from the ball foul, not a foul on the shooter.

However, in your scenario I've yet to meet a coach who understands the concept of a shooter getting fouled and it not being called. Any contact on a shooter, marginal or not is a foul and must be called!
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Old Tue Jul 17, 2001, 12:35pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffRef
Quote:


Dan,

The scenario we are discussing is an away from the ball foul, not a foul on the shooter.

However, in your scenario I've yet to meet a coach who understands the concept of a shooter getting fouled and it not being called. Any contact on a shooter, marginal or not is a foul and must be called!
Oh, well, harumph, trying to confuse the issue with facts
again I see! In that case I change my mind, unless I
don't... Mick, help me out here, will ya...ah, forget it!

Actually, if the foul away from the ball is obvious then you
still gotta call up. Goes to game control & crediblity.
I think game flow might be secondary to these, don't you?

(BTW, it's unfortunate that there are more & more
people using the "can't be a foul if the ball goes in"
philosophy. I still don't buy it.)
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